A $20-40 session in Position

Ideal game conditions: Few tight players and few aggressors. I'm up a rack in two hours without having to show a card. The most profit on one hand was 4BB. I won all hands where I had a turn or river bet in the pot. On each of those hands, I was the lone-preflop raiser, and last to act. Here's the next two (and last two)hands I played:


I fold a dozen hands in a row and pick up K7 of clubs in the cutoff. Three limpers, I raise, the button folds, and five of us see this flop:


9c-7h-3c. I have second pair and a flush draw. All check, I bet, and two players call. Three-way now.


Turn: A red jack.


Check, bet, I raise, fold, and the bettor calls.


River: Blank. We both check the river and he mucks his hand.


My next hand is two laps later, JJ on the button.


Two limpers, I raise, the blinds fold, and three of us see this flop:


A-8-7, rainbow. They check to me, I bet. The initial checker check-raises. The middle guy folds and I reraise. He calls.


Turn: Ace. Check, check.


River: Blank. He bets, I call simultaneously, and he mucks his hand.


Countless times I've gone hours without showing a hand and been even during that stretch. But I can't recall ever winning two racks in three hours without showing a card. A fluke, no doubt, but it got me thinking that Position should be changed to a proper noun.


Tommy

"We both check the river and he mucks his hand"


I always show when I'm first to act and it's checked down. Hell, maybe you've got 6c-5c. I like showing here, the worse my hand the better. I usually accompany it with "Send it," epecially when there's no way I can win.


"Turn: Ace. Check, check. River: Blank. He bets, I call simultaneously, and he mucks his hand"


In my game, if you raise the flop behind a bettor and then check the turn, the other guy will bet into you 99% of the time on the river even if he's seen you call 99% of the time. Amazing.


Why'd you leave the game?

I think you found a strange line-up of players. It sounds like all you have to do is to keep betting until the last player folds.


On the first hand, preflop king-seven suited is not a raising hand after three players limp in. At best it is a limping hand. On the flop, you do not have second pair. You have middle pair. Second pair is a pocket pair which is higher than than middle pair and lower than top pair. On the turn, after showing all that strength and being bet into when the ace comes off, I would not raise but just call. I like your check on the river since you have a hand to show down with your middle pair of sevens.


On the second hand I like your preflop raise with pocket jacks. On the flop, I like your bet with your second pair despite the ace-high board. However, when you get check-raised, I think you should just call. In most cases, the check-raise will mean you are playing two outs and it will rarely mean that the check-raiser is drawing. On the turn, when your lone opponent checks to you, I think you should step in and bet. His check means he is weak and your hand is good. Bet and charge him for drawing. If he check-raises you on fourth you can fold but I think you should bet. At the river, calling is automatic.


It sounds like you have this game scoped out quite well. I compliment you on your play and your game selection skills.

"king-seven suited is not a raising hand after three players limp in"


Under the conditions Tommy describes, I like the raise. The players are all passive, and now probably more passive than ever as Tommy is up a rack. He hasn't played a hand in a half an hour or so, so they feel he's waiting out a quality hand. He's in the cut-off; by raising, he can buy the button and maybe eliminate a blind or two. By raising pre-flop, they're probably going to check to him on the flop, giving him the option of taking a free card or betting. It gives him control of the action, especially given the way Tommy plays from late (sorry, Tommy) position. It seems to me a lot of potential benefits for the cost of one small bet.


"On the turn, when your lone opponent checks to you, I think you should step in and bet. His check means he is weak and your hand is good." I think I bet the turn also, but here's a devil's advocate argument for not: If opponent has an Ace, he's going to check-raise. He might also check-raise with a draw, since the 2nd Ace lowers Tommy's chances of having one. He's going to (at least) call with a draw anyway and then check on the river if he misses, which means Tommy wins one big bet. By checking the turn, Tommy might induce a bluff or a bet with a hand worse than his on the river and win the one big bet with less risk.


[By the way, to those who might criticize us for discussing the play of a poker hand under the present circumstances, I think the terorists wanted us not to go on with our lives and we shouldn't let this happen; and I also find it therapeutic to think about things other than yesterday's horrfying events.]

Hi Tommy,


Maybe you could follow up with another post and give some insight as to why you made some "unusual" plays, i.e.reads, tells.


I think you make some great responses to other posts and I actually played with you at Lucky Chances a couple of weeks ago in a 20-40, and have seen you in "action." I would greatly be interested in your thought process, at least on one of the hands.

But Andy, why do you want to eliminate players on the first hand when you have a speculative drawing hand like king-little suited? I would think you would want a family pot with this kind of hand. The more the merrier. The other problem is that occasionally, one of the other three opponents yet to act or even one of limpers may decide to reraise thereby costing you three bets to take a flop. On the turn, I think it would be rare for an opponent (especially from a field of opponents characterized as "passive") to make the unorthodox play of check-raising on the expensive street with a drawing hand. I mean it could happen but when it does it is usually from an aggressive player not a passive one. If Tommy gets check-raised on the turn, he has an easy fold. But by betting he gives himself a chance to win the pot right away and/or prevent his opponent from betting on the end thereby giving himself a cheap showdown.

k7c a little to loose for my liking. i would muck this hand. played it right the rest of the way.

Jim: "On the flop, you do not have second pair. You have middle pair. Second pair is a pocket pair which is higher than than middle pair and lower than top pair."


Interesting! Around here, 'second pair' is commonly and frequently used as I used it.


In your parts, what does "underpair" mean?


Would 66 with a flop of AKQ be called "fourth pair?"


Would 66 with a flop of A-K-2 be called third pair?


Would AA with a board of x-x-x be called top pair?


Here, we use top, second, and third pair to refer to a having a hole card that matched a flop card. This leaves us without a term to describe JJ with a board of A-4-3 (what your group calls second pair).


I suppose it could be called an underover pair. Though I hope we find something better.


Tommy

"I think you found a strange line-up of players. It sounds like all you have to do is to keep betting until the last player folds."


That's always the case, if you "keep betting" ONLY on those hands when they will fold. This session was a VERY rare case where I did exactly that.


"On the turn, after showing all that strength and being bet into when the ace comes off, I would not raise but just call."


We've got a mixup here. You were replying to the first hand, the K7 hand, and on that hand the turn card was a jack, not an ace. If it had been an ace, I would not have raised the turn. Not because I'd fear an ace in the bettors hand, but because I'd have less need to drive out the third player. His decision to fold or not is less likely to be affected by my raise, because if he hit the ace, he hit it, and if he didn't, then he's not going to take one off with, say, KQ, for one bet OR two bets, the type of hand I want to blast out on the turn, as the hand went down.


"On the second hand I like your preflop raise with pocket jacks."


Cool! lol


"On the flop, I like your bet with your second pair despite the ace-high board. However, when you get check-raised, I think you should just call."


And do what on the turn? Fold? Are you saying I should draw to a jack on the flop for one bet? Jim, I know our approaches are different in some aspects, but this is one area I struggle with and I'd much appreciate an explaination of your routine thought process here. It comes up so often. And all too often, I call the check-raise, and then he bets the turn, and I have no clue what to do. By reraising on the flop, I feel I have a much better chance of getting my money in right, or folding right, on the BB streets. And sometimes, they fold right there on the flop for the third bet.


"On the turn, when your lone opponent checks to you, I think you should step in and bet."


But this an imagined scenario. If I merely call his check-raise on the flop, he (meaning players in general through time) will almost always bet the turn. Now what?


"I compliment you on your ... game selection skills."


It's more like "town selection." But thanks anyway.


Tommy

Andy, "Why'd you leave the game?"


All the usual stuff. I was second on the must-move list, it was five minutes til the next dealer (and half-hour collection), one player in the main game was racking up and there was a reasonable chance that another would too. If I had been certain to get in another half-hour in the must-move game, I'd have stayed. That the new dealer was well timed to be on or near my big blind was the clincher.


Tommy