Party: Up against JJ and QQ unraised preflop

[Sandwich]

Twice this happened to me today on Party Poker's .5/1 Limit game, and I've begun to realize a huge hole in my game: namely, thinking that an opponent couldn't have a huge pocket hand if there was no raise preflop.

Here's an example...
First hand I get KJ on the button. Five limpers see the flop.

KcJc7d

EP bets, three callers, I raise, EP reraises, call, call, fold, I cap, all call so four of us to see the turn.

Turn card is

5h

EP bets, fold, fold, I raise, EP reraises, I cap, he calls. Here I'm thinking I guess it's possible that he has KK or JJ, but why didn't he raise preflop. Maybe he's on a flush draw? I still thought I had the best hand here.

River card is 2h.

Again EP bets, I raise, EP reraises and I call.

He shows me a set of Jacks.

Very frustrating...

So, did I go too far with this? Any advice?

[chief444]

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So, did I go too far with this? Any advice?

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I think that capping the turn and raising the river is overplaying top two. He could have had a set of 7's which also has you beat. The first turn raise I think is fine since he could have a worse two pair or be betting a flush draw or good drawing hand. After that I just call down.

[namknils]

I agree here, I think that the Flop cap is mandatory but when he reraises you on the turn I call it down. I'm not even thinking KK or JJ at that point but the set of sevens that was mentioned.

[cardcounter0]

This is a known variety of Party Poker Fish. Some don't even raise pre-flop with AA. Once you have identified fish of this species, simply know that if they bet into you after you have raised, Immediately go into check/call mode because they have a MONSTER hand.

So after you capped the flop, and then EP bet into you on the Turn -- fold or call.

Usually the most common species of Party Fish would have checked the turn after a capped flop (even if they do have the NUTZ).

[Raiser]

I agree with namknils and chief.

Question. Was your KJ suited? Were there 5 limpers to you or 3 limpers and the blinds?

The reason I ask is: If there are 5 limpers to you and you have KJs on the button you should raise that hand pre-flop. I would probably raise with 4 limpers and the button. On the other hand, I dislike KJo so much that I would probably muck this hand pre-flop.

Do others agree?

[Rico Suave]

Hey Raiser:

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If there are 5 limpers to you and you have KJs on the button you should raise that hand pre-flop. I would probably raise with 4 limpers and the button. On the other hand, I dislike KJo so much that I would probably muck this hand pre-flop.

Do others agree?

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I will limp on the button with hands that I do not play anywhere else. So in short, even with 5 limpers, I will call KJo on the button. (In fact, I will limp in on the button with QTo and KTo with 2 or 3 weak limpers...but, shhh, please don't tell anyone.)

If there were 4 limpers to me in lmp, I muck.

I agree with raising limpers with KJs.

--Rico

[namknils]

I actually was figuring that this hand was not suited. I think it's a questionable limp/fold preflop but from the button I would usually call with it. I think it is on the border but I loosen up in later postions.

[cardcounter0]

Man, you guys leave a lot of money on the table.
KJo? I play on the button, 1 or 2 off the button.
KJs? I play from any position except UTG or UTG + 1.

Unless, there is a raise before me, don't call or re-raise, fold. Don't raise either hand, just limp in.

Of course, even if I flop two pair, I'm not capping streets into someone with trips, so you might want to play it tighter.

[Rico Suave]

Hey cardcounter:

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KJs? I play from any position except UTG or UTG +1

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I would limp with it from UTG in 95% of the games I play in.

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Don't raise either hand, just limp in.


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There are many occassions to raise preflop with both hands.

--Rico

[cardcounter0]

Like most poker questions, the answer is "it depends".

I'm interested that on one hand you say you would "If there were 4 limpers to me in lmp, I muck." and yet you say you play it UTG 95% of the time. Those most be some nice games you play in.

Would like to hear when a raise KJs or KJo is good, other than the folded all the way to you steal the blinds move.