A question to the good pushbotters

#1 11-01-2005, 09:39 AM

I hope I’m right in thinking that being a good pushbot is mainly down to the ability to correctly estimate your opponents calling ranges, so allowing you to estimate the EV of your possible push.

When single tabling you can pay attention to how they play. Make assumptions about calling ranges from they tightness and style of play or what they have already pushed or called with.

My question is if you are 8,10 or 12 tabling how can you get a handle on their pushing and calling ranges when you haven’t been watching the table closely?
Is “what would the average players calling range be at this buy-in” good enough?

durron597 · #2 11-01-2005, 09:51 AM

Most of the time you can just assume your opponents won't call based on stack sizes. I actually had paint here, and I thought that my opponent was relatively loose, but this is still a clear push with any two.

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t300 (4 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

BB (t1760)
UTG (t585)
Button (t130)
Hero (t5525)

Preflop: Hero is SB with 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
2 folds, Hero raises to t5525 (All-In), 1 fold.

Final Pot: t5825

ChrisV · #3 11-01-2005, 09:58 AM

Heh. I went and ran the ICM numbers on that. I wanted to see if the ICM would recommend a fold with AA.

It turns out that AA and KK are calls and QQ is an extremely marginal call, which feels about right to me.

durron597 · #4 11-01-2005, 10:02 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Heh. I went and ran the ICM numbers on that. I wanted to see if the ICM would recommend a fold with AA.

It turns out that AA and KK are calls and QQ is an extremely marginal call, which feels about right to me.

[/ QUOTE ]

Oh yeah, and this was the next hand. I didn't post it originally because my hand is decent but I'm pushing 32o here also.

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t300 (4 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

SB (t1460)
BB (t585)
UTG (t130)
Hero (t5825)

Preflop: Hero is Button with 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
1 fold, Hero raises to t5825 (All-In), 2 folds.

Final Pot: t6275

zambonidrivr · #5 11-01-2005, 10:03 AM

play solid values at the begining. if you're lucky to have a big stack come bubble time, play accordingly. if you're not, hopefully you have not donked off your stack along the way and have retained enough FE where you can begin taking advantage of position and begin shoving your stack collecting blinds. i don't personally consider calling ranges of my opponents except at the $50+ as I see a lot of the same faces. what i do consider is my stack size relative to blinds, action prior to mine, and other stack sizes, and their potiential ranges. What's worked best for me is pushing any 2, and only calling with pairs higher than 8 and any high Ace. thats just me though. i am by no means the best here but i have been winning over the last year and over 5000 sng's.

Degen · #6 11-01-2005, 10:06 AM

yes

#7 11-01-2005, 10:15 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Most of the time you can just assume your opponents won't call based on stack sizes. I actually had paint here, and I thought that my opponent was relatively loose, but this is still a clear push with any two.

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t300 (4 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

BB (t1760)
UTG (t585)
Button (t130)
Hero (t5525)

Preflop: Hero is SB with 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
2 folds, Hero raises to t5525 (All-In), 1 fold.

Final Pot: t5825

[/ QUOTE ]

Yep thats always a clear push, but what about if the if the situation has changed to this:

BB (t3760)
UTG (t585)
Button (t1130)
Hero (t2525)

Preflop: Hero is SB with 2,J.
2 folds, Hero raises to t2525 (All-In).

If the BB is on a tight calling range this is 1.4% +EV but on a loose range it is very nagative.
So here an indication of calling range is very useful.

durron597 · #8 11-01-2005, 10:18 AM

[ QUOTE ]

Yep thats always a clear push, but what about if the if the situation has changed to this:

BB (t3760)
UTG (t585)
Button (t1130)
Hero (t2525)

Preflop: Hero is SB with 2,J.
2 folds, Hero raises to t2525 (All-In).

If the BB is on a tight calling range this is 1.4% +EV but on a loose range it is very nagative.
So here an indication of calling range is very useful.

[/ QUOTE ]

If I was 10-tabling I would probably fold this (but I don't 10-table [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]). This is the kind of spot that causes ROI to go up from playing fewer tables (by pushing against the right opponents), but you make that back in $/hr by having more tables open.

#9 11-01-2005, 10:30 AM

[ QUOTE ]
If I was 10-tabling I would probably fold this (but I don't 10-table ). This is the kind of spot that causes ROI to go up from playing fewer tables (by pushing against the right opponents), but you make that back in $/hr by having more tables open.

[/ QUOTE ]
This is what I’ve been wrestling with. When multitabling you have to pass on some push opportunities because you can't get the reads. But single tabling you can use your reads to get a calling range and so find more +EV situations.

I guess this is really what I was asking.
If there were a way to determine accurate calling ranges while multitabling you would not sacrifice so much ROI over a single table player.

tigerite · #10 11-01-2005, 11:56 AM

Well I use PA Hud just to give some kind of indication, I get it right the vast majority of the time, if they are loose and fishy then they will call with more over when they are tight.. there are other factors though, you just have to give it some thought really. It's not difficult to at least have a stab at a calling range. I probably miss out on some pushes because of this, but not many.