JJ, Q high flop

bungyrocks · #1 09-28-2005, 02:10 PM

Hi All
Its been a while since I have posted here and would like to thank Owen for getting me off my ass and back in here.

I hate hands like this where there is only one overcard to your PP and my standard line is to raise, if I had raised preflop.

comments and criticisms on all streets welcomed.
Alan

SB: 17/4/1.4 over 90 hands

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (10 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is UTG+2 with J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
2 folds, Hero raises, 5 folds, SB calls, 1 fold.

Flop: (5 SB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
SB bets, Hero raises, SB calls.

Turn: (4.50 BB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets, SB calls.

River: (6.50 BB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
SB checks, Hero checks.

Final Pot: 6.50 BB

QTip · #2 09-28-2005, 02:16 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Hi All
Its been a while since I have posted here and would like to thank Owen for getting me off my ass and back in here.

I hate hands like this where there is only one overcard to your PP and my standard line is to raise, if I had raised preflop.

comments and criticisms on all streets welcomed.
Alan

SB: 17/4/1.4 over 90 hands

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (10 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is UTG+2 with J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
2 folds, Hero raises, 5 folds, SB calls, 1 fold.

Flop: (5 SB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
SB bets, Hero raises, SB calls.

Turn: (4.50 BB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets, SB calls.

River: (6.50 BB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
SB checks, Hero checks.

Final Pot: 6.50 BB

[/ QUOTE ]

Welcome back.

IMO, this is is a good time to just call it down and bet when/if checked to.

Edit: You know what else I wouldn't mind here...calling the flop, raising the turn and taking a free showdown. If we think villain could fold a weak Q or would bet a draw, I like that better.

Azhrarn · #3 09-28-2005, 02:25 PM

This would be my standard line against an unknown.

However, your opponent looks like a rock. If you had a read on the villain's post-flop play, if he is as tight and straightforward as his numbers make him look, this is exactly the type of player I would fold my hand against on the flop.

Alternatively, if you think that is too weak, you can call the flop and fold the turn. Some tight players may bet the flop with a gutshot or low pocket pair, but won't fire the second barrel on the turn.

@bsolute_luck · #4 09-28-2005, 03:06 PM

i'm probably checking the turn and folding if bet into on the river unless you think he's donking with KJ or some lower PP.

felix83 · #5 09-28-2005, 03:14 PM

That turn is a terrible card; I think check there and likely fold to a river bet. Unless he's the type to call down with a low PP, he's likely not holding anything you can beat.

callmedonnie · #6 09-28-2005, 05:05 PM

On queen high boards with no resistance I tend to value bet this river, but this board is pretty scary. Would he wait to raise the river? I haev been trying to b/f more but I am not sure if you are going to get a call by a hand that you beat here.

W. Deranged · #7 09-28-2005, 05:16 PM

I think this hand is kind of subtle, because we're basically looking at deciding between three general approaches:

1. Playing the flop aggressively.
2. Playing the flop passively but raising the turn, probably for a free showdown.
3. Playing everything passively... namely going into call down mode.

Given that we don't get raised at any point, we should note that the various methods will often get the same amount of money in, maybe differing by about .5BB. Raising the turn will gaurentee that at least 2.5 BB go in, while the line taken by the OP only generally gets in 2. Calling down will get in between 1.5 and 2.5 depending on the river action, usually.

The major problem with raising the flop is that you can put yourself in a tough spot if you get reraised. Often, a reraise will be a hand that beats you, but sometimes it will be a draw. Opponents are much more likely to play the flop loosely, and so I think that it's perhaps better to forgo a flop raise in order to avoid being put to a tough decision and possibly folding the best hand or putting in a lot of money drawing thin.

One of the nice things about a turn raise is that you maximize your return from a draw or other inferior hand, it is very easy to fold to a three-bet, you might discourage hands like gutshots with an overcard to fold and hence may protect your hand, and you basically cap the amount you will have to put into the pot at 2.5 BB. While a flop raise might allow you to get to a showdown cheaper in an ideal case, it also puts you in more difficult situations, and tends to win a bit less from draws.

On this hand, the problem is that the flush card comes on the turn, which makes raising the turn a tough position. You are losing to many of the hands that villain could be betting with here, and so raising becomes much less appealing. Raising might still be viable, though, with the purpose of encouraging a weak diamond (a hand like 7 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 7 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]) to fold. Given that calling on the turn commits you to calling the river usually, raising the turn is probably still best as if I have to put in two bets total, I'd rather put then both in on the turn than one each on the turn and the river, for several reasons.

This is tough. Your line is certainly fine, though it's best saved for straightforward opponents who will not, for example, three-bet a draw or other inferior hand on the flop, or play the big bet streets in a tough fashion.