Question about a play I made

[Schmed]

The other night I made a play that I kind of walked away questioning. (I probably walked away questioning it because it was the last one after a 7 hour session).

I was dealt A [img]/forums/images/icons/spade.gif[/img] Q [img]/forums/images/icons/heart.gif[/img] . I was last to act. A good player who was tight aggresive was first after the blind and raised, 2 players called, then another good player who I noticed to be loose preflop but tight after raised, 2 players folded and I called. Players in the blinds folded and first raiser called as did the two behind him.

The flop came 9 [img]/forums/images/icons/heart.gif[/img] J [img]/forums/images/icons/club.gif[/img] K [img]/forums/images/icons/diamond.gif[/img]

First TA player raised, 2 players folded, the next TA player reraised. I called

Turn came 3 [img]/forums/images/icons/club.gif[/img]

First TA player bet, next TA player raised, I called, first TA player called

River came 8 [img]/forums/images/icons/heart.gif[/img]

First TA player checked, 2nd TA player bet, I folded, first TA player called.

2nd TA player had a pair of aces, first TA player had K A, I don't remember the suits.

My thinking.

Preflop; with all of the action in front of me I figured that the first raiser had a high pair and the 2nd one was either trying to counterfeit or had a high connector like KQ or AK. In looking back I probably should have folded with all of that action in front of me especially coming from the players that were there and the positions they were in. If the guy with the high pair catches even if I catch two of my cards I would have been behind.
The 2nd guy would bluff so I think I got caught up in thinking he was trying to get players out with his reraise so if dregs came he may have an advantage.

Flop; Once I saw the flop I was one card away from a straight. The pot was getting big so I figured I was getting the odds to stay and try and catch.

Turn; Basically a blank. With more money in I figured my odds were still right to try and catch.

River; didn't catch and got out.

Was the mistake I made staying at all or was it a good bet? Was I right in staying to catch one card. My quick math made me think I had the right odds to chase 10-1. If I catch neither of them would have beat me and I would have taken down a pot that was in the neighborhood of 100.(1-4-8-8 betting structure).

Was I gambling here or was I playing the odds like I thought I was? (You know what they say about a little bit of knowledge......I am about half way through theory of poker and was thinking..odds odds odds..... [img]/forums/images/icons/tongue.gif[/img] )

[pudley4]

</font><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr />
A good player who was tight aggresive was first after the blind and raised

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As soon as you see this you should be thinking about folding your AQo.

</font><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr />
2 players called, then another good player who I noticed to be loose preflop but tight after raised,

[/ QUOTE ]

2 cold-callers, then another good player reraised. You can see he's not trying to isolate the first guy, because there are 2 other players who are already in, so you should put him on a very good hand also.

AQo goes bye-bye right now.

You said it's a 1-4-8-8 game, so there are 5 players to the flop for 13 sb. When the betting gets to you, you're only getting 16-2 (or 8-1) on your flop call. I think you can call the flop bet, but it's close. It would be an easier call if you know the first bettor won't reraise.

On the turn, there are 9 BB in the pot. When the betting gets to you, you're only getting 12-2 on your call. It's a clear turn fold.

Be sure to keep track of the bets in the pot so you can calculate the odds you're getting. Saying The pot was getting big so I figured I was getting the odds to stay and try and catch and With more money in I figured my odds were still right to try and catch is not good. If you want to be a winner, you can't just guess at whether you're getting the right odds or not - you have to know

[Louie Landale]

[Before Flop] You are in a LOT of trouble with your AQ when the first TA player raised UTG. He needs to be raising with LOTS of hands (like AT) before you can even think about calling that single raise. Generally, TA players do NOT raise so liberaly UTG, and rightfully so.

Good players who are loose before the flop but TA afterwards, trust me, know what danger they are in when other TA players raise UTG. Do NOT confuse this player raising in last postion with 87s with 3-betting a solid 2-bet.

Your AQ is mostly dead when the first player raises, its completely dead when the second player raises. It only gains a little value if the cold-callers are hoplessly loose; it loses value when they are not since they are likely to have big cards in their hands, severely limiting the number of cards left for you to pair.

Toss this one without a thought before the flop.

[On Flop] You need a T. Since you are probably dominated and may be up against a set, you are going to LOSE this pot more often when you snag a T (they fill up) than you are going to WIN the pot when you do NOT snag a T (you snag a winning Ace). I count 20sb when its time to call 2, so you are getting 20:2 or 10:1 for your 12:1 gut draw. It may get capped. Even though you make up ground if you turn a T, your straight is by no means a sure winner. Looks like a somewhat bad flop call to me.

[On Turn] You are not getting anywhere near the right odds to snag a T for a double turn bet.

[River] Good fold.

"Trouble" hands (unsuited unpaired big cards) have the following characteristics: they are real good when they are the "best" hand out and they are real dogs when they are NOT the "best" hand out. You can usually call when you have the best hand perhaps 45% of the time. That's why you fold KJ UTG since its "probably" beat by 9 unseen hands. You can raise KJ late (when nobody raises) since your chances its the best hand have gone up dramatically when several players fold.

Likewise, you need to drastically adjust their relative value when there are other raisers, tight callers, and certainly reraisers.

All trouble hands can confidently be folded, called, raised, or even reraised depending on conditions. You are NEVER going to beat reasonable games unless you really grasp this idea.

Try this: come up with two different situations where you would confidently fold AK before the flop.

- Louie

[Schmed]

Thanks to both of you for taking the time to respond.

I really knew I shouldn't have called that hand. I went to the bathroom came back, sat down, bam there's AQo I'm thinking..prettttttttttttty.finally a hand worth playing.....In retrospect I guess I had two things working against me. I stayed longer than I should because It was the first time I took such a beating and against all advice that I have read and been told I was hanging around trying to catch another hand. I wasn't sharp at all and when I was walking away through a maze of slot machines at 1:30 am my head was telling me 'WTF were you thinking staying in there'. [img]/forums/images/icons/crazy.gif[/img]

"come up with two different situations where you would confidently fold AK before the flop."

I guess this is one of them. Two good players, one raising the other. Like you said the one who raised knows that the guy utg is a good player. He knows that the TA player utg has something and he wouldn't really try and make a move on him when there are others there to be moved on (by the way the guy utg was the guy who had the boat in the question I asked "was I being too aggressive"....ooootz he got me again... [img]/forums/images/icons/mad.gif[/img] really I got myself this time ). The 2nd raiser had to have more than AK.

I think another one of them would be in a late position and if I were 3 betted in to by TA players, really 3 betted in to by anything but maniacs.

I guess another one would be if I were sitting next to a TA player who was utg and he made it three bets after I called his initial raise. I guess those are kind of obvious. I maybe even should fold if I know a guy to be TA and he's utg and raises at all. Then again that may being a little too tight because he could have the exact same hand.

Again thanks a lot for taking the time to respond. It really helps to see others thought process.

Some things I'm working on right now with TTH is trying to undertand odds. Pot odds, implied odds, and effective odds. I am reading TOP and I'm studying those chapters.

[Ed Miller]

You played this hand poorly from beginning to end.

You should have folded AQo just after a tough player opens with a raise UTG. AQ doesn't want to play against any of the hands that he represents with his raise. The fact that another player 3-bet makes it a no-brainer fold. Playing that hand there is a very large mistake.

Given that you played the hand... there are five players in for four bets each preflop, or 20 bets.

On the flop, it is bet and raised to you, so you have 23 bets and only have to put in 2 to call. Thus, you are getting a little better than 11-1 on your call. So it looks like a call, but I would fold. The reason is that a 3-bet from the first bettor is likely... and there is a solid chance that one of your opponents has a set, so he will have a significant redraw on the river against you if you do hit your miracle card on the turn. The main issue, though, is that this sort of flop could easily be 3 and 4-bet back to you again before you get to see the turn card, cutting your odds to below 6-1 and making you the huge loser.

But you called on the flop, and the initial bettor just called. Whew. Now the turn comes, and it is again a bet and raise to you. There are now 16 big bets in the pot, and you have to put in 2 to call, so you are getting 8-1 on your call on an 11-1 shot. Furthermore, it could be 3 and 4-bet back to you again on the turn. You have a very clear fold on the turn... calling is a big mistake.

Obviously you fold on the river when you miss.

I suggest you post your holdem hands on the Small Stakes forum instead of this one... that forum gets significantly more traffic, so you will get more responses.