Maximum Extraction with QQ?

garion888 · #1 04-23-2005, 09:11 PM

What do you guys think of the flop call combined with the turn C/R?

EDIT: Forgot reads

UTG=34/4/1.3
BTN=18/7/1.5

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (8 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is BB with Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, 2 folds, Button raises, 1 fold, Hero 3-bets, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, Button caps, Hero calls, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls.

Flop: (16.50 SB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (5 players)
Hero bets, UTG calls, UTG+1 folds, Button raises, Hero calls, UTG calls.

Turn: (11.25 BB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (4 players)
Hero checks, UTG checks, Button bets, Hero raises, UTG calls, Button calls.

River: (17.25 BB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (4 players)
Hero bets, UTG calls, Button calls.

Final Pot: 20.25 BB

jt1 · #2 04-23-2005, 09:20 PM

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Maximum Extraction with QQ?

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Uh yea! Perhaps AA would have raised you on turn if you just bet out but you don't know that he has AA, and more importantly, I think you do want to protect this pot with a check raise. Gutshots have odds to call one but not two so going for the check raise is good but betting out isn't bad either as it disguises your hand a bit against smaller sets and AA. So you want to do two things here 1) protect and 2) maximize against AA and smaller sets. Since you can't be sure that button has AA, the two objectives are mutually exclusive and you have to pick one. Good hand!

garion888 · #3 04-23-2005, 09:44 PM

Can someone explain how a stop and go is going to help me disguise my hand? This is a play I haven't entirely integrated into my game yet...

Thanks,
-Jason

jt1 · #4 04-23-2005, 09:47 PM

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Can someone explain how a stop and go is going to help me disguise my hand? This is a play I haven't entirely integrated into my game yet...

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In this situation, I already told you. But you have to also realize that you might want to try and protect.

ErrantNight · #5 04-23-2005, 10:37 PM

bad turn check-raise. letting it get checked through would be horrible. and your forcing UTG to face two bets, cold. 3-bet the flop and lead the turn, and hope he caps and/or raises on the turn.

ErrantNight · #6 04-23-2005, 10:38 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Maximum Extraction with QQ?

[/ QUOTE ]

Uh yea! Perhaps AA would have raised you on turn if you just bet out but you don't know that he has AA, and more importantly, I think you do want to protect this pot with a check raise. Gutshots have odds to call one but not two so going for the check raise is good but betting out isn't bad either as it disguises your hand a bit against smaller sets and AA. So you want to do two things here 1) protect and 2) maximize against AA and smaller sets. Since you can't be sure that button has AA, the two objectives are mutually exclusive and you have to pick one. Good hand!

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You shouldn't really be concerning yourself much with protection here. You're looking to extract value.

BriPlay · #7 04-23-2005, 10:41 PM

i think your play is fine.
I'd probably bet the turn instead and hope to get raised, trapping UTG.
Im a little worried bout that 9 river.Lead, but don't be shocked to get raised by UTG.(after all this is no-foldem)
Brian

jt1 · #8 04-23-2005, 10:56 PM

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You shouldn't really be concerning yourself much with protection here. You're looking to extract value.

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agreed, but these are things to consider. You've dissed me twice now.

ErrantNight · #9 04-23-2005, 11:01 PM

sorry for the diss. i didn't even realize.

but it really shouldn't be a serious part of this discussion. what, precisely, are you hoping to protect against? and what about your opponents' play makes you suspect that they have those fearful holdings? other than a feeling that it would suck for them to flash you those fearful holdings.

you REALLY don't want to be facing, or planning to face, the field with two cold on this turn the vast majority of the time. really.

ErrantNight · #10 04-23-2005, 11:07 PM

just to clarify JT1... on Q57 rainbow boards, when you hold top set... protecting shouldn't even be under discussion. there's not significant draws, and you absolutely pwn everyone else in the building, regardless of their holdings. your equity edge is so huge it's retarded. and not in a mentally retarded way. in a politically incorrect retarded as "frickin' retahded" as in so big and awesome as to be unfathomable.