Heads Up 20/40 Stud Eight Or Better Hand

[Rick Nebiolo]

This hand comes from a typical 20/40 stud eight or better game. A small card brings it in for $5, a banana or two folds, and the player with the “Action Bet” (a forced $20 raise with right of last action posted by the scooper of the previous pot) automatically makes it $20 as required. He shows (x-x) Ad. I fold my usual garbage, a decent player folds and Hero has (2s-3s) As and raises to $40. All fold to the “Action Bet” Player (ABP) who calls Hero’s raise with $20 more.

ABP is new but to this game but appears to be a reasonably competent recreational player during the hour he has played. The folded cards are essentially irrelevant to this hand (there was no more than one spade, and no cards that would make either hands dead as they developed).

On fourth-street APB catches an Ah and Hero catches a 7c. The board reads:
ABP: (x-x) Ad-Ah
Hero: (2s-3s) As-7c
APB bets and Hero calls. This seams routine.

On fifth-street APB catches a 5c and Hero catches a 4s. The boards now read:
ABP: (x-x) Ad-Ah-5c
Hero: (2s-3s) As-7c-4s
APB bets and Hero calls.

Question 1) Should Hero have raised on fifth street? If so, why?

On sixth-street the boards read:
ABP: (x-x) Ad-Ah-5c-5h
Hero: (2s-3s) As-7c-4s-6c

ABP bets and Hero raises. ABP calls.

Question 2) What to you think of Hero’s raise on sixth street? Was it a clear raise, or a close decision between raising and calling?

On the river Hero catches a deuce. ABP bets and Hero calls with her busted flush, busted straight, and six low.

ABP shows 2-3-4 in the hole and scoops Hero with his wheel.

Question 3) Did Hero play this hand poorly or was it just an unfortunate result?

Regards,

Rick

[brad]

well i think a case could be made to

a) raise fifth since if all he has is a pair of Aces with no low draw he can fold to a raise.

b) raise the river in case thats all he has and he might fold it.

anyway thats just bad luck she got cold decked like that.

but anyway i think the strategy she was employing was building a big pot in case she caught and scooped.

[Tom D]

I think it was a clear raise on sixth, even if Hero knew APB had four to a wheel. (Bad luck for Hero that APB had four to the wheel) APB had to hit perfect to scoop where Hero could hit either 5 or any spade and expect to scoop. Waiting to raise on the river would most likely lose a bet those times when Hero hits, since APB will probably check it.

On Fifth Street, to back up, I don’t see a good reason for Hero to raise. There’s very little downside to waiting since Hero’s probably only going to get the opportunity to put in one raise anyway and can expect APB to continue to bet his Aces on Sixth Street.

Tom D

[brad]

well it depends but if calling an extra 20 doesnt really define the guys kill hand or action hand or whatever then consider this.

hes half in so he calls 3rd with some kind of hand.
he pairs his door card so he bets.

on 5th he catches a low card and bets. now against some players only here does this signify anything.

but anyway if he has like (TJ)AA5 then i think i would want to give him a chance to fold because if you brick on 6th then basically hes probably getting half the pot.

of course hero has caught good so you cant figure a decent player to go betting fifth street with above garbage hand but to be honest ive seen a lot worse.

[Ray Zee]

on fifth street she is about a 2 to 1 favorite against what he might have and raising here is the right play. cause if she doesnt he will not bet on sixth if she catches another spade or small card or if he catches a blank. so she loses a bet.
if he can play at all his bet on sixth means he has better than two pair or a low draw with it. but of course she still needs to raise on sixth.

[kirisim]

Definitely raise fifth! You have a made low with a possibility to scoop. Anytime you have this you should jam it, because you might catch, or you might get them to fold -in either case you scoop.

In this situation, you got unlucky because the opponent caught perfect, but this will happen very rarely.

[Rick Nebiolo]

The player sitting between Hero and me thought the sixth street raise (we didn’t discuss fifth street) was very wrong after the showdown. Normally I don’t like to discuss hands at the table but we are at the learning stage and it was a friendly crowd. Anyway, he is from out of town, seems to play well, and is doing very well in the game over the last few weeks. However, that doesn’t make all his advice sound.

He indicated that he had put Hero’ opponent on two small cards in the hole and that Hero’s raise had to be a mistake since it was obvious her opponent was a favorite. I couldn’t understand how he could be so sure. I thought that since ABP had $20 already in, his call of the extra $20 on third-street would often be made with a mediocre hand, especially given Hero’s aggressive style. His bets on fourth, fifth and perhaps sixth streets would be automatic with his strong looking board.

My concern was that she was being convinced by this “voice of authority,” especially given that she lost the hand. If anything, I thought her only error was possibly not raising on fifth-street and was glad to see this confirmed by most of the posters.

Hero still has a “gamblers” tendency to play and think results. In other words, she tends to overlook errors made in hands she wins and over analyzes hands she loses, thinking she must have made a mistake. In this case, she took the criticism seriously. Had she won the hand, she would have blown it off, just like she blows off my advice after her good days [img]/forums/images/icons/smile.gif[/img]. THIS IS A MAJOR “STUDENT OF POKER” ERROR and it is very important to get that into her head!

A still learning player is almost as likely to make errors in hands won as in hands lost (I’m sure Mark Glover/QuadNines would find something wrong with this statement but I’m guessing most of you get the gist of it). Sometimes you fail to get the extra bet in. Sometimes you win because you took a card off when you shouldn’t have. Conversely, sometimes you play the hand well and things don’t work out. That’s one reason why poker is such a great game – ego and results can get in the way of finding your mistakes (Do I sound like Roy Cooke here?).

Anyway, thanks for the responses.

Regards,

Rick

[Rick Nebiolo]

ray,

Thanks for the advice. Hero will be excited when she comes by tonight (we plan on playing some $20 stud high low freeze outs and we play for blood).

Hmm, a 5:24 am post. Do all you Montana men get up this early?

Regards,

Rick

[Andy B]

This is an example of a hand that I'd smooth call and probably re-raise with on third street. I think you want to let people in.

Easy call on fourth. I would raise on fifth. Hero has the best of it. Since the other guy was forced in, there's really no reason to think that he's loaded. Hero has a nice lead for the low side, and numerous outs for the high side, with two cards to come. Waiting until sixth to raise is fine, I guess, but her edge is larger on fifth street than it is on sixth.

Hero played just fine. The other guy got lucky. Happens.

[Rick Nebiolo]

Andy,

The probem with limp-reraising on third street was that ABP already put in the first forced raise (since he scooped the previous hand) and the other hands were weak.

I agree with the fifth street raise. Things can slow down if she catches good and he catches bad on sixth. Get the money in early with the edge.

Regards,

Rick