TT preflop decision

[jason_t]

Assume no real reads at a slightly tough Party Poker 2/4 table.

Preflop: Hero is SB with T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
UTG folds, <font color="red">UTG+1 raises</font>, UTG+2 folds, MP1 folds,
MP2 folds, MP3 folds, CO folds, <font color="red">Button 3-bets</font>,
Hero....

I say call. We're not getting good odds, but we have some fantastic
implied odds. We're out of position, but we play well enough after the
flop to stay out of trouble.

blumpkin22 says fold. Maybe we're up against AK or 99, but are we
going to call down if tens are an overpair (most of the time it won't
be) and even if we magically hit a set on the flop we can still lose
to a higher set or flush. I'll gladly 3-bet with TT and take control
of the hand, but will lean toward folding when it's been raised and
reraised in front of me and I don't have position.

What say you?

Add one more caller and he thinks the decision is closer.

Add two more and we agree it's a trivial decision.

[Chairman Wood]

I usually fold this here. Unless I know that Button might try to isolate with lesser hands (which usually doesn't occur at Party 2/4) I fold. One of the biggest reasons is that your position sucks ass for the rest of the hand. Also most of the hands you are up against (considering an average PP 2/4 player) you are drawing 50/50 to and the other ones dominate you. It's one of those situations where I think folding is best because you are most likely ahead but not by much and a less amount of the time (although significant) you are behind and way behind.

[amulet]

calling 3 bets cold with tt is a losing play when you have position. in this case it is only 2 more bets, but your are out of position, and two players have shown strength. one may have ak or aq, but the other probably has a high pair, just based on the possible combination of raising hands. i think calling here must have a neg ev. fold.

[Mike Gallo]

I would fold against typical opponents.

Against over aggressive players I would tend to cap or four bet.

Your leaving out a variable in attempting to solve your equation.

I once played in a $10-$20 game where I folded 10's from the small blind. Someone else had the other 10's one player had KK and the winner had AA.

I respected the play of two of the three players, this led me to fold.


In another spot, I capped with 10's from the sb in a $6-$12 game. The cutoff raised the button reraised and I capped with 10's.

[jason_t]

We only have to make up about five small bets postflop if we catch a set.

[Chairman Wood]

[ QUOTE ]
We only have to make up about five small bets postflop if we catch a set.

[/ QUOTE ]

So you would call with 22 here?

[jason_t]

No. Do you see why? I'll let others elaborate.

[Chairman Wood]

[ QUOTE ]
No. Do you see why? I'll let others elaborate.

[/ QUOTE ]
What's with the cockiness? Would you rather I not input on your discussion? If your point is that you only need to make up 5 small bets (first of all that is a lot of bets) if you flop a set I was remarking that by that logic you could make an argument for calling with 22 here. What does it really matter what PP you have here when someone has a higher one? What do you do about the other 7 times you don't flop a set and you are dominated?

[jason_t]

Whoa. Whoa. WHOA! No cockiness at all. "Do you see why? I'll let others elaborate." is a common line to induce you to think about it for yourself. I appreciate and seek your input. (Last night I posted a reply to your post in the probability forum; I ended my post with "Do you see why? I'll let others elaborate." because I like giving you the opportunity to think about it yourself AND I was entirely too lazy to type out my reasoning at the time.)

22 is a fit-or-fold hand, I think. TT is not. But I'm still learning, and that is the point of my OP.

[Chairman Wood]

No problem, I think it is just an overused line that for some reason strikes a cord with me. Although it is no excuse, a man that is currently forced to work from 10:30 pm to 7:00am can get a little touchy. My apologies. Did you understand my point though about TT and going for a set? I believe, as I think I stated in my orginal reply, that the hands you are ahead of right now you are close to 50/50 with. The hands you are behind, you are way behind, leaving you basically in the same position that you would be with 22. (Actually TT is a little better as it has more straight possiblities)