An interesting 20/40 turn

[na4bart]

Short on time, so I'm just going to post this and see what you guys do with it.

Live 20/40 at the Bike this morning. I'm on the button with A [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]Q [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]. Middle position open raises. Never played with hime before, but have watched his play and found nothing special. An average 20 player, no better. I 3 bet mainly to get out the blinds. To my surprise the small blind (a very tight and thinking player) cold calls. MP caps it and we call, 3 to the flop with 6.5 big bets in the pot. There is no doubt that MP has a premium hand like AA, KK, QQ or AK. Knowing the small blind as I do I'm 100% certain he has some sort of pocket pair.

Flop: 6 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]J [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]Q [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

Hmmm...TPTK, but still feel I am probably behind after SB checks and MP bets. At this point I'm thinking overpair. SB appears to have missed his set, I hope. I raise with two backdoor draws in an attempt to get a better read on MP and hopefully fold out the SB. Pesky SB cold calls and MP 3 bets. I call and SB calls. I'm thinking AK, AQs, AJs, ATs, KK for SB and AA, KK, AK, AQs for MP. Anyway, I'm going to the river assuming no help and no ace or king on the turn.

Turn T [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

This I like as I've picked up some outs. SB checks and MP bets out. I don't think SB has slow played a set due to the size of the pot and knowledge of his game. I still feel I'm behind, but not by much.

What is my play in this spot? I'll post my actions and results when I retuen home later this evening.

[Chris Daddy Cool]

a line some would take is to raise this turn and check behind the river unimproved and bet with improvement, but i don't advise that here because you're so likely to get 3-bet anyways here given the strength that MP has shown and that you'll likely be showing down the loser anyways if you did take a free showdown. i vote for call.

[na4bart]

I'm a bit surprised this didn't generate more discussion. Most likely because I'm not that well know on the site. Oh well, such is life.

Anyway, as advertised, here is my line, reasoning and results.

I raised the turn sure I had the worst hand figuring that the raise would fold the SB and give me the best chance to win the pot. Even if MP 3 bet me, I still had some clean outs.

SB folded KK face up and MP followed suit by folding AA face up! I understand the KK fold for two cold, but the AA's?! Big mistake. All I can come up with is that he had too rigid a read. Anyway, I take down 12 big bets uncontested.

[CardSharpCook]

wow. I think you owe the SB some of your money. I think that his lay down made the other guy want to one up him. You have too know you're way behing when the SB cold-called on the flop. If not for the pretty turn card giving you 12 more outs, I fold to the turn bet.

Good story though, keep them coming.

CSC

[na4bart]

I agree. The flop action convinced me I was beat with few if any outs. Turn changed the whole thing. Still cannot believe the laydowns these guys made.

In the heat of the hand I probably was going to the river, but a unimproved turn fold is probably the best play

[elysium]

hi bart

just call on the turn. usually, whenever your hand can improve it's best to call. the only exception is a possible semi-bluff. now going for a semi-bluff raise designed to get the fold does have more merit here in LP than it would from EP because a few extra factors weigh in from LP with this specific holding, than do from EP.

from LP, your semi-raise may actually be a hard to see value bet. furthermore, a raise might buy you a free showdown on the river. and then, you have the slight opportunity to value bet on the river if checked to. but here's why you shouldn't semi-bluff raise or raise the turn;

you have top pair. unless your raise has clear-cut value, you should only raise if the raise will foldout a stronger hand. unfortunately, unless the UTG is decidedly weak/ tight, your raise will only succeed in folding out a weaker hand. so, actually bart, in this hand you do not want the fold, you want the call, therefore, you shouldn't take any costly extra steps that will discourage your opponent from calling, which is what your raise would unfortunately do.

if you didn't have top pair, ironically a raise would make better sense. then, you would like to driveout the possible other A with better kicker, and the raise may be the only opportunity you'll have to win the pot. i think that the pot is large enough here to make raising to make your A high stand up reasonable enough. without top pair, a semi-bluff raise gets the nod. in this spot bart, calling is your only option. any other exotic reason for raising such as increasing the implied value of your hand 1 in 5 times or so is overshadowed by too many other factors to make raising viable.

i haven't read any of the responses but i will say that you correctly called on the turn. by the way, it's hard to imagine any situation in which folding on the river would be correct. you should call it down if you fail to improve almost 100% of the time.

[elysium]

hi bart

wow!!!

[TStoneMBD]

elsyiums post says it all. i would just call this turn, but after finding out that the other 2 guys are capable of laying down those hands to your turn raise, go ahead. however, against most players you should just call the turn as you may very well be up against a set, and are certainly behind. i also vote for just calling on the flop. you read MP as a big hand and out of those big hands the only one you are ahead of is AK which only has 3 outs to beat you. you ended up costing yourself alot more money than you should of, but were fortunate because you somehow got both players to fold.

[kowboy]

Wow! I can understand the laydown from the blind but mp with AA. They must have really felt you had AK because that is the only thing that makes me want to fold AA in this situation (on a side note I dont think I would have turned my aces over, too much info for you). I think you could rationalize that with the large pot and the scary board any raise may appear to be a steal with hope of improvement. Also if you are a solid player would you really raise when the ten hit with AK? I dont think so, you would have the nuts at the time (barring another club on fifth), you would want both opponents in. If another club didnt show you could check raise then and they would have to call. Think of your gain as a gift that wont be returned in the same fashion. Good luck. [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

[TStoneMBD]

if i turn the nut straight im raising here about 100% of the time. mp could easily have a set and reraise me.