AK flops overcards

what · #1 01-02-2005, 11:38 PM

after 15 hands with sb he has played about half of them. This was his first preflop raise.

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (8 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is BB with K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]. CO posts a blind of $4.
UTG folds, UTG+1 folds, MP1 folds, MP2 folds, CO (poster) checks, Button raises, SB calls, Hero 3-bets, CO folds, Button calls, SB calls.

Flop: (10.33 SB) J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3 players)
SB bets, Hero raises, Button folds, SB calls.

Turn: (7.16 BB) J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets, SB raises, Hero calls.

River: (11.16 BB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
SB bets, Hero folds.

Final Pot: 12.
16 BB

I can't decide if I should have taken the free card on the turn. The second jack hitting makes him less likley to hold a jack so should I bet out again and hope he folds?
How horrible was my river fold? This hand confused me and I wanted to get out of it, but are 12:1 odds enough to call a double paired board with an ace?
Should I have folded to his turn raise?

If I had checked behind and a blank came on the river I would be forced to call if he bet out, right?

SamIAm · #2 01-02-2005, 11:59 PM

I think one of the best reasons to raise the flop is to buy a free card on the turn. If you walk into a check-raise, you sorta wreck that.

You're right, if you check-through the turn, you won't know what to think if he bets-out on the river. But I'd rather fold there if you don't hit (or call if your A comes) than bet on the turn.

-Sam

BusterStacks · #3 01-03-2005, 12:18 AM

absolutely you need to take the free card on the turn.

private joker · #4 01-03-2005, 12:30 AM

[ QUOTE ]
after 15 hands with sb he has played about half of them. This was his first preflop raise.

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (8 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is BB with K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]. CO posts a blind of $4.
UTG folds, UTG+1 folds, MP1 folds, MP2 folds, CO (poster) checks, Button raises, SB calls, Hero 3-bets, CO folds, Button calls, SB calls.

[/ QUOTE ]

Something must be up with the converter because SB didn't raise PF according to this.

If indeed SB was betting into two PF raisers on that board, he has a J at worst. On the turn I'd check and fold the river unimproved, but I don't like betting this turn at all. AKs is nice, but by the turn I don't see ace-high winning this hand, and your overcard outs are potentially dirty -- it would have been nice to see a spade on the flop too. These are hands to get done with cheaply; you get your money in PF with the best hand, then flop dirt and walk into a check-raise.

W. Deranged · #5 01-03-2005, 12:56 AM

A few things...

You have to take the free card on the turn. There is very little in here that you want to fold. If he's getting crazy with overcards, you have him dominated and he's drawing to three outs at most. So you don't mind having those hands in anyway. Some kind of medium pair might fold, but I doubt the value you get from the few times that happens is more than the potential you lose by not taking the free card or when you get check-raised.

If you check behind and take the free card, you probably have to call the river. There aren't that many draws around, but your opponent will be bluffing (worse overcards, busted straight...) often enough to make this worth calling.

Finally, when you do bet the turn and get check-raised, lay your hand down. The pot is really not that big... at 10 big bets, its barely enough if you give yourself all 6 outs, and that's so dubious that you absolutely can't call.

Kenrick · #6 01-03-2005, 05:55 AM

You're asking about the turn yet don't seem to have a problem with raising the flop on nothing against a sb who called two cold.

spydog · #7 01-03-2005, 07:55 AM

I like the flop raise. I like the turn bet since you are now HU. The turn bet can fold any paired 5 or 6. Some players will autobet the flop with any piece regardless of preflop action, but fold this turn when the 2nd jack hits. However, why didn't you fold to his checkraise as he is telling you that he has trip Jacks or a full house?

chesspain · #8 01-03-2005, 09:00 AM

[ QUOTE ]
You're asking about the turn yet don't seem to have a problem with raising the flop on nothing against a sb who called two cold.

[/ QUOTE ]

SB did not call two cold preflop.

Kenrick · #9 01-04-2005, 06:13 AM

[ QUOTE ]
SB did not call two cold preflop.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, 3/6 structure, it's only not two cold by a dollar.

kyzerjose · #10 01-04-2005, 09:10 AM

Don't beat yourself up on this one.
I like the raise on the flop. With a call from the SB, who in my mind cold-called two bets PF, I'd probably start getting real twitchy.
AK sooted looks real pretty and is a great hand PF but loses so much of its' value if it misses the flop.
On the turn, if I'm faced with a paired board with AK sooted and I don't have the nut flush, I'm looking for some reason to toss my hand. I've got overcards to the board but that's it. I'm thinking, even if I get a runner runner flush, I can only hope I'm not drawing dead.
Personally, I'd have laid the hand down after the CR, muttered under my breath that life is not fair [img]/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img], and moved on down the line.
But every now and then we all get married to one of those beasts; so checking the turn was your best choice.
When the river double paired the board and the SB bet, you HAD to lay the hand down. I mean you were beat right? [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]