I'll get flamed for this play

[nepenthe]

I believe that aggression must be tempered by respect towards your typical opponents (read: Orangutans) at a LL Party table, precisely because they will play a lot of hands and go too far with them. This means that hands which would be unlikely for someone who plays well, given the structure and chronological order of the board layout and betting patterns, are in fact quite probable for the typical Party 3/6 player (read: gutshots, unlikely 3oak, et hoc genus omne). I hate to have to call checkraises in position with hands I believe are beat but are too good to fold in these situations.

I've noticed amateurish opponents especially love to checkcall the flop and checkraise the turn when they have something fairly strong. So when I'm heads-up with a strong holding against a typical and/or unknown Party 3/6 player (read: Orangutan) I have slightly modified my plays on pretty dangerous boards to something like the following:

I'm in MP with K [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]K [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] and raise 1 limper. It's heads-up to the flop.

Flop: J 6 J rainbow.

The board is completely drawless, and he checkcalls fairly quickly.

Turn: 2 rainbow.

He checks the turn fairly quickly. There is no flush draw on board. He's drawing slim to dead if he's behind. In my head I'm imagining a stodgy, slightly overweight dwarven halfling in his underwear rubbing his hands together, salivating at the chance of a clever, devious, unexpected, fiendishly original turn check-raise. Holy schmoley sacerdotal integrity of Jesus circumcised, Batman.

That, or he's planning to fold to my turn bet.

Call me nuts, but I do not see the value to a turn bet. The only other possiblity is that he has a lower PP. The chances he'll call with this improbable holding (and checkcall the river) are slight compared to the chances he'll fold or checkraise me with a better hand which I will then feel compelled to call down.

Earlier in my career I'd bet this turn 100% of the time. Not anymore, not in this situation.

River: T [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] suits don't matter because I don't remember, or vice versa.

He bets out fairly quickly. I call. Because.

He has J6o for the flopped nuts.

This is but one example, but heads-up situations like these pop up constantly, and I believe have saved many BBs with plays similar to the one above (and gained some BBs when the opponent decides to bluff the river (or rivers a worse pair) with a holding which he would most likely have folded at the turn). It may seem weak-tight, but in the end profit is what matters. I think. Let me have it and tell me if I'm wrong.

[Michael Davis]

Your play is fine. Why do you think you are going to get flamed?

-Michael

[Evan]

I do the same thing quite often when I feel I have a reason to, it's not my standard play, but I use it a lot.

[Monty Cantsin]

Contempt for your opponents combined with frightened passive play = poker genius. You rock. Sorry to hear about your bad beat.

/mc

[Richard Berg]

Looks fine. Being less inclined to value-bet someone whom you've seen employ checkraises is straight out of Sklansky.

[Monty Cantsin]

Please note he isn't making this play against a known opponent, he is suggesting it as s.o.p. against unknowns.

This is the kind of flinch-poker that's designed to get the hero's big hand safely and cheaply to the finish line and I don't like it.

I'll go out on a limb here and say that when you have KK heads up against a random low limit Party Poker player on a drawless board and they call your flop bet and the turn is a brick you should usually go ahead and bet the turn.

Sheesh.

/mc

[joker122]

[ QUOTE ]
I'll go out on a limb here and say that when you have KK heads up against a random low limit Party Poker player on a drawless board and they call your flop bet and the turn is a brick you should usually go ahead and bet the turn.


[/ QUOTE ]

But why?

[Lost Wages]

Clearly, this is player dependant. Saying that a board of JJ6r is drawless is applying your concept of proper play. Many low limit players would routinely call the flop and turn against the preflop raiser with A7o or worse. I always assume that an unknown player is typical (i.e. bad) until proven otherwise. So, bet the turn against an unknown.

Of course, if you have specific knowledge of the opponent, then checking the turn and calling the river can be the correct play. It's in HEPFAP somewhere but I'm too lazy to look t up right now.

Lost Wages

[Joe826]

[ QUOTE ]
Many low limit players would routinely call the flop and turn against the preflop raiser with A7o or worse. I always assume that an unknown player is typical (i.e. bad) until proven otherwise. So, bet the turn against an unknown.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah I agree with this. If I bet the flop and an LP calls i'm happy to bet the turn. If I bet the flop and a player who's very likely to bluff at this just calls, i'm very happy to bet the turn. If I bet the flop and a decent player just calls.. I start to worry.

[me454555]

I don't like this play as SOP against unkowns and here's why. Unknown party 3/6ers will often call down w/any sort of overcard hoping to get lucky and any sort of pp hoping you have AK. The comibined possibilities of the 2 will give you enough value on you're turn bet to make it worthwhile.

Case in point, last night I played 3/6 and just sat down at the table when a hand similart to this occured. I had JJ and raise pf, orangatang to my left 3 bet me and I called. Flop came down 99x. I bet, 3bet, and he capped me. I check called the turn and river and he flipped over 88 giving me a decent win.

I later asked him why he capped the flop his response was "b/c I thought you had AK".

This is not the first time I've gotten this line when I asked about an opponents play. Flop is J high, I have AJ opponent has 88 and he has the same thought process as he calls the whole way.

The fish always assume you have a worse hand than theirs or one they have outs to beat. If they have A high, you have KK if they have K high, you have QQ. They will call to hit that miricle so charge them for it.

P.S. - When you get c/red on a turn w/a drawless board and a paired flop, it usually means trips. You loose the same amount when you toss it to a c/r as you do by checking the turn and check calling the river.