Bet size for NL: constant vs dynamic....?

Kirkrrr · #1 08-06-2004, 05:43 AM

Hey everyone. This is a question that has plagued me for a while as there seem to be enough arguments both for and against, so I figured I'll address it to you gents and see what everyone else thinks. Here goes...

Do you think keeping your bets relatively same (i.e. pot-sized, 2/3xPot, All-In) is the better move or varying them throughout the night?

The reason this bothers me so much is that I like to keep my bets constant: if I raised pre-flop, I'm betting on the flop with a pot-sized bet. If I'm raising pre-flop, it'll be 4-5xBB (unless there's a lot of limpers, in which case it'll have to be more than usual), largely regardless of what I'm raising with. If I'm betting post-flop in general, 90% of the time it's going to be a roughly pot-sized bet. I do it to avoid giving away information, thus reducing the possibility of giving away my hand to the more observant opponents.
However, the problem I often run into is that people are far less likely to call those bets and I'm not getting enough action. OTOH, if I try to bet smaller to draw them in, some will start catching on and fold. On top of that, a bet less than 1/2 pot screams weakness and begs for a good raise, at which point I'm up a creek if I don't have the nuts (in which case I probably wouldn't be betting on the flop in the first place).

I'm done rambling and look forward to any thoughts and comments anyone is willing to share.

Kirk R.

greywolf · #2 08-06-2004, 08:41 AM

i assume you play at stakes where youre opponents are smart enought to care about your play, if that is the case it is very important not to give info away by varying your bet size. If in doubt or new to the game - ALWAYS bet the same amount in big bet.

But i do not think it is necesary to always bet the full pot i personnaly prefer to bet somewhere around 80% pot

The reasons for this are the following:
1. Sometimes i have a monster and i want to tempt my opponents in by rasing less than the pot.

2. Most of the time i dont have much and want my opponents to fold and by betting less than max i give myself better odds.

If you do choose to vary your bets well that may be a better strategy, sometimes i make a small bet that is often confusing to some opponents and might induce a bluff. As you said a half pot bet screems weakness - but only if you only bet half the pot when you are weak you have to the bet half the pot when you are strong sometimes too otherwise you will be crushed i think....oh i could write more but im tired of this .i want to see other thoughts on this subject

hummusx · #3 08-06-2004, 09:47 AM

I tend to keep my bets very uniform PF. 3xBB unless there are already limpers, in which case I'll raise it a little more. In a tournament, I'll reduce that to more like 2.5x as the blinds get higher.

Post-flop, I tend to vary my bets within a range from about half the pot to just over the pot. I take a lot of factors into account, and some of them are in opposition to each other which helps to eliminate any apparent pattern (I think). For instance, SOMETIMES when I have a weakish hand I'll bet out smaller (60% of the pot). Occasionally this induces a call/raise where I don't want one, but I think as often as not people are worried that you want a call. On the other hand SOMETIMES I'll bet smaller (60% of the pot) when I DO want a call.

Likewise, I'll occasionally overbet the pot just a little when I raised pre-flop and completely missed the flop, hoping that my opponent will just fold. I do the same thing when I flop TPTK in order to take away the odds for drawing hands.

So I guess my point is it's ok to vary your bets, and it's even ok to vary in a non-random way. What I think is important is that your method of determining what to bet contradicts itself so that no useful pattern can be determined.

I'm kind of curious about this though:

[ QUOTE ]
On top of that, a bet less than 1/2 pot screams weakness and begs for a good raise, at which point I'm up a creek if I don't have the nuts (in which case I probably wouldn't be betting on the flop in the first place).

[/ QUOTE ]

If you are only betting at the pot when you have the nuts, you've got bigger problems than determining how much to bet.

pokerstudAA · #4 08-06-2004, 10:38 AM

I don't mind changing up the size of my bet through out the game. Generally, making a weak bet into a big pot is just asking to be reraised. I think the size of the bet depends on who is in the pot with you and not necessarily the strength of your hand. The size of my bet also depends on how they view me. If I have been playing like a maniac and raising alot I may keep going or decide that it is time to slow down. Sometimes with the best hand against some opponents I will go all in becauses I know that they might call with sub-par holdings. Other opponents may only call a less than pot size bet. Against an opponent who likes to bet aggressively it may be best to go for the check raise. Most imporatantly, the goal is to extract the maximum chips from whoever remains in the pot. So it all depends....

Al_Capone_Junior · #5 08-06-2004, 02:06 PM

Keeping your bets constantly one "size" is wrong. You should vary your bet sizes depending on the situation. Where "generally" a pot size bet is good, sometimes you might want to bet more or less. If I am protecting a probable best, but weak hand, such as say bottom two pair when there's a flush draw and an ace on board, I would bet MORE than a pot sized bet. If I flopped top two in an uncoordinated rainbow board, I might bet less than the pot, hoping someone with top pair might call or even raise (so I can reraise). There are tons of examples I could come up with, but the point is that ALWAYS betting one way in no limit is not a good thing.

If you are not getting action it's not because you always bet the same amount. There must be other reasons.

al

Kirkrrr · #6 08-06-2004, 04:53 PM

No, what I meant was that if I raised pre-flop and flopped the nuts (ex. AKs and flopped the nut flush, 67s and flopped the boat) I'll check the flop to give my opponents a chance to catch up. But your lack of confidence is appreciated.

Thanks for the responses so far, everyone. I like the 60% bet whether you're weak OR strong, important part being to do it when you're both. I'm heading out to play 1/2 here real soon and will give it a shot.

Kirk R.

pzhon · #7 08-07-2004, 01:11 AM

I believe the main reason people don't vary the size of their bets much is laziness. It's much simpler to bet the pot whenever you bet. UltimateBet even has a convenient "Bet Pot" button. However, there are times to overbet and times to underbet.

You should vary the size of your bet according to the street, stack sizes, position, possible draws, the betting history, your opponents' tendencies, etc. These variations give no information about the strength of your hand.

You should vary the size of your bet according to the strength of your hand. This will give some information away, but if you are careful you can gain more than the value of the information to your opponents. Similarly, sometimes raising preflop and sometimes limping gives information away, but it is valuable to have the choice.

Kirkrrr · #8 08-07-2004, 05:10 AM

Well, first off I wanted to thank everyone for the responses I recieved. It was food for thought. Just got back from playing for about 8 hours straight. I think one of the most important things to consider with bet sizes (for example) is your opponent. If you're playing against a good opponent (which I try very hard not to do in the first place), every more you make becomes important as it gives information. But when I was in the pot against average opponents, I noticed that what I bet and how much I bet didn't matter nearly as much. If it was "low," they called. If it was "high," they folded. If they called and I didn't at least have top pair with a good kicker, I was largely done with it since I knew that's at least what they had and weren't folding. On the other hand, against good opponents bluffing becomes a much more powerful tool as I know they're capable of laying down good hands if they think they're beat.

Anyway, I'm done rambling. Good luck to everyone and thanks again.

Take care,
Kirk R.

Louie Landale · #9 08-09-2004, 01:34 PM

I think your bet sizes should be aligned with the texture of the board. When complete hands are possible or no reasonable draw is out then bet about 2/3rds the pot; when no complete hand is possible but draws ARE likely then tend to bet more than the pot.

Raised preflop? Bet 2/3rds of the pot is 883 or 942, but bet more if the flop is 983 2-flush.

- Louie

allenciox · #10 08-09-2004, 03:09 PM

Louie Landale is right on, here, on a rainbow flop with no real straight draw, a 50% pot bet is plenty --- on a two-suit flop with many straight draws, you'll want to bet more.

To me, there are three factors that influence my bet size on the flop:

1) Texture of the flop
As Louie mentions

2) Number of players seeing flop.

Less likely to be up against a flush or straight draw with one or even two opponents, in this case, if I am heads-up on the flop out of position, I'll try for a check-raise with top pair, or bet small with anything to see what they do.

3) Deepness of the money.

If the money is deep, you may want to overbet the pot with top pair to scare off draws... they may even call a pot size bet if they think they can get your chips if they make their draw.