Top pair with gutshot draw in big pot

[cjromero]

I know I should have raised this preflop. I was playing a second table, and hit the wrong button when this table popped up. Was I right to keep drawing here? Should I folded to the turn raise or the river bet?

Party Poker 1/2 Hold'em (10 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is Button with Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, UTG+2 calls, MP1 calls, <font color="666666">2 folds</font>, CO calls, Hero calls, <font color="666666">1 fold</font>, BB checks,

Flop: (7.50 SB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="blue">(7 players)</font>
<font color="CC3333">BB bets</font>, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, UTG+2 calls, MP1 calls, CO calls, Hero calls.

I was getting 13.5 to 1 to draw to the overcards and the gutshot. Okay to call given the flush and straight draws on the board? Some of my outs are surely counterfeited.

Turn: (7.25 BB) A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="blue">(7 players)</font>
<font color="CC3333">BB bets</font>, UTG folds, UTG+1 calls, <font color="CC3333">UTG+2 raises</font>, MP1 calls, CO folds, Hero calls, BB calls, UTG+1 calls.

Okay. Now I have top pair with the gutshot and am getting about 6 to 1 immediate odds and more favorable implied odds. Anyone fold?

River: (17.25 BB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="blue">(5 players)</font>
BB checks, UTG+1 checks, UTG+2 checks, <font color="CC3333">MP1 bets</font>, Hero calls, BB folds, UTG+1 folds, UTG+2 calls.

At this point, I am getting over 18 to 1. Am I good often enough to stay in?

Final Pot: 20.25 BB
<font color="green">Main Pot: 20.25 BB, between UTG+2, MP1 and Hero.</font> &gt; <font color="white">Pot won by UTG+2 (20.25 BB).</font>

Results in white below: <font color="white">
UTG+2 shows 9h As (two pair, aces and nines).
MP1 shows Ah 7d (two pair, aces and eights).
Hero shows Qh Ac (two pair, aces and eights).
Outcome: UTG+2 wins 20.25 BB. </font>

[Bill Smith]

I'll give it a shot.

PF: I'm okay with the limp - too many in the pot.

F: The 3 J's are fairly safe outs, and the 4th one gives you a flush draw. The A's may be outs as well since you would think AK would raise PF. Call is fine.

T: Icky... I just can't imagine TPQK is good with 4 opponents prepared to see the river, but there are a lot of draw possibilities out there. The one hand UTG+2 might raise here that you are good against is AJ (or maybe KJ diamonds?) but you're behind AT, A9 and A8 with no safe way to improve. Raising won't phase anyone. I think you can flip a coin between calling and folding.

R: A lot of draws missed, so I think you'd like to showdown here. MP1's bet is suspicious, but it would've been very strange play to be riding nothing but an 8 this far. (J8? 87?)

You were really in a tough position on every street, so I can't say I would've played it any better.

[adanthar]

[ QUOTE ]
PF: I'm okay with the limp - too many in the pot.


[/ QUOTE ]
You shouldn't be.

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...;o=14&amp;vc=1

[cjromero]

As I said in the original post, not raising AQ preflop was an accident. I agree that raising AQ in that spot makes sense. I am more interested in comments on the postflop play.

[adanthar]

[ QUOTE ]
As I said in the original post, not raising AQ preflop was an accident. I agree that raising AQ in that spot makes sense. I am more interested in comments on the postflop play.

[/ QUOTE ]
Yeah, I'm just talking about the guy's comment, not your play [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Don't see anything else you could've done there other than fold the turn. I might've, but I'd probably wind up too tempted and call down, especially when I didn't raise PF. In a raised pot, this smacks of 'I can beat an ace' so it's actually an easier fold.

[Bill Smith]

[ QUOTE ]
Yeah, I'm just talking about the guy's comment, not your play [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

No need to be a jerk about it. There have been a lot of debates in this forum about AQ with ton of limpers, and my comment was "I was okay with it." I typically raise, most people raise, but this is not nearly a make or break deal.

[bwana devil]

[ QUOTE ]
I know I should have raised this preflop. I was playing a second table, and hit the wrong button when this table popped up. Was I right to keep drawing here? Should I folded to the turn raise or the river bet?

[/ QUOTE ]

i think things look ok. would you have folded if the turn didnt show an A or hit you in some other way? by the looks of things, it was played right.

Bill Smith, I'd have to disagree with you that limping is an option in this case. AQo is in the top ten best hands to get, everyone limped to you, and youre got position. got to get everyone to throw more money in the pot whether it's one limper or the table.

bwana

[Bill Smith]

[ QUOTE ]
Bill Smith, I'd have to disagree with you that limping is an option in this case. AQo is in the top ten best hands to get, everyone limped to you, and youre got position. got to get everyone to throw more money in the pot whether it's one limper or the table.

bwana

[/ QUOTE ]

AA, KK, QQ, JJ, TT, AKs, AKo, KQs, AQs, AJs

Are those not the ten best multiway hands?

Rather than turn this into a "Jump the advice of one person" orgy (no, you'd NEVER do that, would you 2+2ers?) answer me this. Does Pokertracker allow you to look up your win/loss against 5+ limpers with AQo? Also, can somebody post a link for the random hand generator that gives you a win % on a complete board for each hand entered?

Again, flame me and I'll sue. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] With 5+ limpers I raise AQo about 90-95% of the time, and when I limp, it is when:

- A very tight player has limped
- The table has been slowplaying a lot of big hands

My contention, however, is that it is NOT a big difference in EV whether you raise or limp this with 5+ players in the pot. That why I said I'm OKAY with the limp. Sklansky seems to be okay with it too.

[bisonbison]

Bill,

He wasn't being a jerk about it. You're giving up a lot of bets by not raising AQo preflop. A lot.

This is a must raise.

[Zetack]

[ QUOTE ]
Does Pokertracker allow you to look up your win/loss against 5+ limpers with AQo?

[/ QUOTE ]

No, because my sample size of limping in that situation would be zero. Raise em up, buttercup!!!

--Zetack