Call or fold this river?

Ortho · #1 07-28-2005, 12:34 PM

Of course comments on all streets appreciated.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t50 (8 handed) converter

UTG (t1395)
UTG+1 (t1660)
MP1 (t1595)
MP2 (t2850)
Hero (t1120)
Button (t1620)
SB (t1560)
BB (t1700)

Preflop: Hero is CO with K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
4 folds, Hero raises to t150, 1 fold, SB calls t125, BB calls t100.

Flop: (t450) J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (3 players)
SB checks, BB checks, Hero bets t225, SB calls t225, BB folds.

Turn: (t900) T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
SB checks, Hero checks.

River: (t900) 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
SB bets t800.

TheSalche · #2 07-28-2005, 12:44 PM

looks like he has Ax and hit his kicker ... you've probably been behind the whole way here and this is a good time to fold, especially since its still relatively early in the SnG, and you'd rather not risk half your stack with just 2nd pair

tigerite · #3 07-28-2005, 01:23 PM

Once again, fold preflop

Ortho · #4 07-28-2005, 01:30 PM

Hmm. I've just returned from six months of limit, so I'm probably too loose preflop. However, Harrington gives this as a pot-opener in late position, I'm in the cutoff, I've got a reasonable number of chips. I can see folding if the blinds were higher and I were in that in-between 'too big to push, to small to play' zone, but this seemed just right to me.

tigerite · #5 07-28-2005, 01:39 PM

You're laying out about 12% of your stack with no intention of defending it to a push. I wish people would stop using this Harrington advice which is meant for much deeper stacks and MTTs in an SNG environment, it's nonsense.

Ortho · #6 07-28-2005, 01:42 PM

[ QUOTE ]
You're laying out about 12% of your stack with no intention of defending it to a push. I wish people would stop using this Harrington advice which is meant for much deeper stacks and MTTs in an SNG environment, it's nonsense.

[/ QUOTE ]

How many BB's do you think I'd need to have in my stack before this move becomes reasonable?

tigerite · #7 07-28-2005, 01:43 PM

Do you really need the 75 chips that badly, that is what you should be asking yourself. Seeing as the line you took, including the flop where you bluffed on 2nd pair, has now cost you 40% of your stack.

Ortho · #8 07-28-2005, 01:45 PM

Was that not a legitimate question, for some reason? There is some stack/blinds level where it makes sense, obviously, and some other stack/blinds level where, according to you, it is "nonsense." I'm just asking you to clarify your advice.

tigerite · #9 07-28-2005, 01:47 PM

I suppose it's alright to raise if doing so and folding to a reraise only costs you, I dunno, between 5-8% of your stack I would say. But at that point you have to ask if you need the 75 badly enough to do it. You don't even need it that badly here, that was my point.

Ortho · #10 07-28-2005, 01:58 PM

I agree in spirit with what you are saying. My problem with it, though, is that it's always true that the bigger your stack gets, the less you need the blind money and the less incentive you have ever to play non-premium hands. However, it is also true that a good player has a bigger advantage against a bad player postflop (I'm far from even decent, but it's rare that I've gotten outplayed like this postflop in the 6.5's I've been playing), so there must be some incentive to see flops. Harrington's advice has to apply somewhere, is basically what I'm saying. I've been away from tournaments for quite a long time, and perhaps the bubble advantage is of such magnitude that there really is no point to doing anything other than playing pairs and AK and trying to flop monsters, I don't know. I've only played 30 of these since I've started again and I have felt kittens dying the times I've gone out in 7th or 8th place with a hand I wouldn't have thought twice about in a ring game.

Sorry for the essay. I've got something in my craw.

Anyway, result: I fold and he shows 2 baby spades.