Top Pair Mid Kicker - gimme your line and why?

Jimbobobb · #1 09-23-2004, 01:42 PM

Hooray for my first hand, and absolutely no notes on a single person at the table, which is odd.

Party Poker 0.50/1 Hold'em (9 handed)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
UTG folds, UTG+1 calls, MP1 folds, MP2 calls, MP3 folds, CO folds, Button folds, SB completes, Hero checks.

Flop: (4 SB) T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (4 players)
SB checks, Hero bets, UTG+1 calls, MP2 raises, SB calls, Hero calls, UTG+1 calls.

Turn: (6 BB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (4 players)
SB checks,

and hero......

MagicRat · #2 09-23-2004, 02:00 PM

I think you have to bet out. MP2 may just be playing his flush draw aggressively, not necessarily a Q with better kicker. You'll be in a better place once you see what he does. The SB cold-calling but then checking the turn could be troublesome but I still think you've got to go for it!

flair1239 · #3 09-23-2004, 02:10 PM

Well you are dealing with a wide range of hands.

Possibilities include:
QT, QJ, KJ, AT, KT or a flush draw.

You would like to think that with AA, KK, AQ, KQ, QQ, or TT, he would raise PF (Being that you have no reads, I don't think that this is a bad line of thought.)

I may be going overboard on this, but I almost veiw the flop as a raise or fold situation. But I guess I can't say just calling his raise was a "bad" play.

I would bet into him on the turn. The reasoning being, that if he is on any sort of a draw the turn has missed him completely. If it comes back raised, I guess I have to give it up at that point.

Jimbobobb · #4 09-23-2004, 02:20 PM

Hero definitely bets. That flop is just too ripe with draws for me to give a draw a free card. I didn't 3-bet the flop because I'd rather have a clearer idea of where I stand on the turn if it bricks. Lots of hands that beat me might be put into check/call mode if I 3-bet the flop. So I bet the turn - who folds to a raise?

flair1239 · #5 09-23-2004, 05:16 PM

[ QUOTE ]
So I bet the turn - who folds to a raise?

[/ QUOTE ]

I do.

After more time to think about it, I really think the flop should of been reraise or fold. I think simply calling the raise showed we were not overly happy with our hand.

I still think you have to bet the turn, but I think by simply calling the raise on the flop, it could induce a semi-bluff raise on the turn. Where by reraising the flop and then leading out, it makes him make a decision.

I don't think that folding the flop would hae been out of line.

Nottom · #6 09-23-2004, 05:45 PM

[ QUOTE ]
After more time to think about it, I really think the flop should of been reraise or fold. I think simply calling the raise showed we were not overly happy with our hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm starting to like the stop-n-go more and more on very draw heavy boards like this. Even if I'm pretty sure I'm ahead (say I had KQ here) with all those people in the pot, most of the money going in is going to the draw anyway so I'd rather not help him build a pot, plus if he did out flop me I save a bet or two as he is less likely to raise the turn without a big hand while a flop raise doesn't really give me much information.

afk · #7 09-23-2004, 06:12 PM

Hey Nottom,

I like that line of thinking, my question is if you bet the turn can you safely fold to a raise in a hand like this? I think that could be a no-brainer.

edit: I didn't really read a lot of the thread and missed the fact that this has been addressed a bit.

Nottom · #8 09-23-2004, 07:31 PM

Its somewhat opponent dependant, in this case I think you probably can against a normal opponent. With a better kicker you might have to call down.

flair1239 · #9 09-24-2004, 10:28 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
After more time to think about it, I really think the flop should of been reraise or fold. I think simply calling the raise showed we were not overly happy with our hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm starting to like the stop-n-go more and more on very draw heavy boards like this. Even if I'm pretty sure I'm ahead (say I had KQ here) with all those people in the pot, most of the money going in is going to the draw anyway so I'd rather not help him build a pot, plus if he did out flop me I save a bet or two as he is less likely to raise the turn without a big hand while a flop raise doesn't really give me much information.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't completely disagree. However, I think it sends conflicting signals, and not necessarily strong ones. To me it is a sign of indecision, where the player likes his hand, but realises it is very beatable.

Like I said, I think against a certain type of player, you are inviting a turn raise that really you have no choice but to fold to (with the hand in question... and yes no choice is an exaggeration). Whereas by playing back at him on the flop, then leading into him, it put the pressure on him. Another benefit in my mind is if you do get raised on the turn after such aggression, you have no qualms about folding, because it is almost certain that you are beat, but you still are'nt married to the pot.

Jimbobobb · #10 09-24-2004, 10:49 AM

Basically my thoughts were kind of along both lines. 3-betting the flop gets me nowhere, as there are lots of draws he might cap with, and I still don't know where I am. I'd fold to a raise on the turn, but I can't see a draw doing that, and since I'm pretty sure I'm gonna see a showdown (whether it includes me in it or not) with this hand, if they're tricky enough to raise a draw here, I'll have that information for later. As it ended up, half the field folded on the brick turn, and the river bricked again, and the rest folded to my bet.