Chasing a bigger pair

Forgive my ignorance as I am learning. But I have a question about chasing a bigger pair. In 7CSFAP it is stated that a pair of 10's or Jacks should be folded if you're sure you're against a bigger pair (or when your cards are dead). But then an example is given where you hold a pair of Jacks & Ace kicker and drive out a possible Queen pair to play heads up against a possible King pair.


So here are my questions: does having the overcard kicker alone make chasing correct? Or does a raise and call by the 3rd player make it correct because of the increased size of the pot?


I'd appreciate guidance.


Thank You

Kevin

Kevin,


It is the overcard which makes the play correct. In fact, if you have the smallest pair of three opponents, but a live overcard to both of their hands, you are a money favorite here and should continue to play. But you are absolutely dead in the water if you do not have the overcard. The reason 7CSFAP advises eliminating a pair of Qs to play only against a pair of Ks is based on the assumption that there is dead money in the pot (antes/bring-in/any bets or calls by Qs) that make your play mathematically correct. If you make Js up, you will often beat unimproved Ks; you will be boss if you make Aces up. In a three handed pot, if you make Js up, you now have to pray that two opponents do not improve.


Most otherwise decent players who do not win money at this game do so because they cannot lay down decent pairs like Js or Ts. It is better to go to battle against Ks, Qs, or both at the same time with a pair of deuces with an ace than a pair of jacks without the overcard. Usually, it is better not to fight at all.


Any pair without a live overcard should be folded if you are up against a bigger pair. If you are playing a low spread limit game without an ante, you should also fold even when you do have an overcard, as the rake eats up most profit potential of these hands.


Good luck.


Mike

Thank you for your explanation Mike. That also seems to clear up some confusion I had on small & medium pairs. The money is in the kicker since you can fold:

1. on 7th (if it is bet & you didn't improve)

2. when it is obvious that the bigger pair did improve before you have

3. when a pair card to your higher kicker shows up on opponents board


Thanks

Kevin

your single opponent had a bigger buried pair than U and U had a split pair,but no over-card kicker??

Some writers say that U should continue to play because your opponent can't make two pairs before 7th Str. without your knowing it.

Do U agree with this advice??

Just wondering.

Sitting Bull

My beginning ignorance aside, I would think that playing against a burried pair would be better since he can not make 2 pair without you knowing it, yet you can make a hidden 2 pair and raise his bet at that point (assuming he continues to bet into you). Since he is playing, you have to assume his hole pair is already larger than your pair, but your advantage comes from being able to make a hidden 2 pair.


Kevin

...But he can make hidden trips -silly boy- which will cost you. Split-pairs can't. After a 3rd street raise from you, if you pair your door-card, 90% of the time everyone will fold to you. The ones who stay are either suckers or they have a real chance to beat you. You trip-up a buried-pair and you often take down a large pot.


The notion of playing "against" any buried pair is absurd anyway because you can't possibly know someone has a buried pair until it's too late (usually).


Good luck figuring all this stuff out, is a fun and frustrating journey my friend.


JimBraker

Larry,


In general, I think the advice to play against a larger buried pair because you know it will improve is geared toward games with legitimate antes. The games you and I play in, if you can deduce that someone has a higher pair in the hole (like, they would not reraise you without having the pair you are representing beat) you should fold, unless folding puts you in a such a bad spot regarding table image that you will be viewed as a "folder." Then, you are going to have to call sometimes. How often do you really make two hidden pair without your opponent improving, though?


Really, I don't think its worth chasing here, either. As JimBraker pointed out, your opponent will occasionally make hidden trips and skin you for a big pot. In a spread limit game with no money in the middle to start, I prefer to dump everything but the best hand/excellent draw if pressure is being applied.


Mike

Kevin,


In Poker Essays III (I think?), Malmuth has an essay about an expert possibly being able to outplay another play for profit when he starts with a lower pair and an overcard. It is a very intriguing idea.


The advantages you list are all excellent. Yes, you should generally fold anytime your opponent catches a second pair on board, unless the pot is huge. Yes, you can fold on the river. Additionally, you should get a checkraise in whenever you spike your overcard, if your opponent is not extremely passive.


On point #3, you should not necessarily fold just because one of your kickers comes out. If the pot is big, you should continue. If you have caught other live two pair cards and your opponent has caught cards that do not appear to help him, you can probably continue.


For example, suppose you started with (5A)5 against an opponent showing (xx)J. You proceed to catch a 6 and a 3 on your next two cards. Your opponent catches a 2 and a Q. If you have not seen any sixes or threes, and have seen some twos and queens, your hand is well worth a call here (if the pot is decent), and on sixth street too.


Though I write the above paragraph, if you are playing well in a low limit game, you should not find yourself in many of these situations because you should be folding to most third street raises. A big reason to play a pair/overcard hand in a bigger game is because the players might not have what they are representing. If you play too many of these hands and do not play them well, it will hurt your profit margin. Better off dumping them when you know you're beat.


Good luck. Sorry for the rambling.


Mike

The ramblings of one who has greater knowledge is wisdom to those who are learning [img]/images/smile.gif[/img]


Kevin

having the bigger kicker makes a difference HEADS UP. in a multiway pot or in a game with a small ante you are better off folding. when you get more experience you can play the hand in other situations, but for now just make sure it is heads up.


Pat