Fifth Street Fold...

Structure is 1 unit ante, 2 unit bring-in, 4/8 unit structured betting. 8-handed.


A small card brings it in, the 4c calls, I raise with K6-K, a 6 and an 8s cold calls, a Jack, a Queen, some blank and the bring in folds. Clubs are live.


Fourth street the 8s catches the Th, the 4c catches the Ac, I catch a 6 for Kings up.


The 4cAc checks, I bet, 8T raises, 4cAc cold calls, its to me: reraise, call, or fold?


Fifth street: 8T catches a blank, 4cAc catches Ah, I catch a blank. 4cAcAh bets, I fold, and the other guy calls. How is my fold here?

It depends on the quality of play of your opponents and the number of clubs out on third street.


I think it is close here between folding and raising, and a lot depends on the players involved. A lot depends on the chances of 8T having trips compared to lesser hands that you can beat.


If 8T does not have you beat, he has very few outs to beat you, and you will always see them. So calling, I think, is a surprisingly strong play here. You can see sixth street and decide where to go from there against a probable two pair and a pair of aces/flush draw. But if this is the read, it better be right, or its better just to fold and wait for another hand.


I think this is one of the most interesting situations posted in awhile, and I hope people debate about it, because although it seems like a fold, you can justify making other plays here given the size of the pot.


Mike

nf,


You are against Aces-UP or Aces and a four flush, both of which your hand is a dog too so your Kings-Up is an easy fold here on fifth street, even with a high-ante such as this. ( although raising wouldn't be too terrible IF... it will get the pot heads-up AND get you a free card on 6th )


If this situation occurred on 6th street I would either call or raise depending on what the 8T caught.. due to the bigger pot. But since this occured on 5th and we have to (probably) call at least 3 Big Bets, folding seems prudent to me with an inferior hand.


CJ


P.S. -- 4th street is a re-raise here with the positions listed as such.

big dog against the combined field where one player has a Str8 draw and the other a flush draw.

So Y put additional chips into the pot by re-raising??

Reference: "Seven Card Stud Poker" by Konstantin Othmer.

Happy pokering,

Sitting Bull

I said folding was the correct play on fifth street!!!! I only said re-raise if it would obtain the goals stated above( which it probably wouldn't at that limit,but against timid opponents it might )


Why would I reference "Seven Card Stud Poker" by Konstantin Othmer??


Also, are we positive we are against a str8 draw also?


CJ

this is a high ante game, so the size of the pot has to be taken into account. that said i think this is a clear fold in most situations. if he has aces up you need a tremendously large pot toplay. the more interesting situation is where he has aces and a fourflush. it is still a fold but it is much closer. if you were sure that he had a pair and a flush you should call because of the size of the pot. but you are a dog to an overpair and a flush draw and the clubs are still completely live.


given the way the hand is played i think this is his most likely hand. but you are not that much of a dog and if that is his hand you should not fold. this is one of those situations where you are either a small dog or a very big one, so you should probably fold. but if you knew for sure that there was a strong chance that his hand was just aces and a four flush you should call.


a word on raising here: if you play you should call. if he has aces up you will probably get reraised and you may knock out the other player. by calling you have a greater earn if the third player stays in and if you fill you will be unhappy you raised. i see little point to knocking him out here. it is hard to figure what he has othre than a straight draw, which is teh worst hand in this situation so why not let him play? even if he has two smaller pair he is still the worst hand.


Pat

Excellent post. These are exactly the types of situations that make low limits so tough. A lot here depends on who you are against -- the reraise from the 8-10 from a timid/tight players would suggest trips. But from a loose aggressive player, it could well be a four straight or even two pair. Hard to envision what the 4 is calling along with if it's not a flush draw. So now you are against a higher pair that can either make two pair or a flush to beat you, plus a hand that either dominates you (trips) or has a live draw to beat you (str8). If you raise, most players won't fold. Chances are you're down to three outs (two ks, one 6) -- a 12-1 shot against, but two cards to hit, so you are 6-1 dog to fill. The pot at this point is laying you just about 7-1 on a call (I count $58 in prior to 8-10 calling and not allowing for rake).

So a crying call may be the right play. If you make your house to the king, you can beat the 8-10 house. And if your read on the aces as being a lone pair/flush draw is right, he'd have to go runner-runner to fill and beat you. If you hit on sixth, you'll get a raise in, so probably make at least two more bets (can't assume both will call paired

kings on the board -- or either will call a river bet if they don't make their hands). You are only going to invest one more bet (on sixth street) if you don't hit. But, on the negative side, you can hit a six to fill and lose to a full house from the 8-10, if he does have trips. Or the aces could have been slow playing a buried pair of aces and be drawing to a full that beats whatever you have. Ugh. I think I'd call here if I was confident I was against a flush draw and a straight draw, fold if I felt it was a significant likelihood I was against trips in either place. What happened?

I mucked to the bet on fifth. the 8T called.

on sixth the 4AA caught a 4 and bet and the 8T whatever folded.


should I have reraised 4th?