Ice breaker....

[imported_turvalon]

Catchy thread name? Okay, so bisonbison and others are convincing me that I should post hands here without fear, and to break the ice, I have picked two of the crappiest hands I have played in the last 24 hours for you to decimate. Gosh I look at these and wonder if it was really me.

Paradise Poker 0.05/0.10 Hold'em (9 handed)

Preflop: Hero is SB with Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
UTG calls, UTG+1 folds, MP1 calls, MP2 folds, MP3 folds, CO folds, Button calls, Hero completes, BB checks.

No idea why I limped in with this. Probably should have folded here and saved some money. To make matters worse, I just check called all the way down to the end. Is this not the worst play you have ever seen...man!?!

Flop: (5 SB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="blue">(5 players)</font>
Hero checks, BB checks, UTG checks, MP1 checks, Button bets, Hero calls, BB folds, UTG calls, MP1 folds.

Turn: (4 BB) A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="blue">(3 players)</font>
Hero checks, UTG checks, Button bets, Hero calls, UTG calls.

River: (7 BB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="blue">(3 players)</font>
Hero checks, UTG checks, Button bets, Hero calls, UTG folds.

Final Pot: 9 BB

Results in white below: <font color="white">
Button shows Ac As (three of a kind, aces).
Hero shows Qh 4h (one pair, queens).
Outcome: Button wins 9 BB. </font>

Okay, that hand was just to get over my embarrassment of posting hands.

Paradise Poker 0.05/0.10 Hold'em (10 handed)

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
UTG folds, UTG+1 folds, UTG+2 calls, MP1 folds, Hero raises, MP3 folds, CO folds, Button folds, SB calls, BB calls, UTG+2 calls.

Flop: (8 SB) 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="blue">(4 players)</font>
SB checks, BB checks, UTG+2 checks, Hero bets, SB calls, BB calls, UTG+2 calls.

I have a problem with overcards... should I have just folded after the flop? I thought if I bet, it would cut some of the people out and it was a cheap bet on the flop.

Turn: (6 BB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="blue">(4 players)</font>
SB checks, BB checks, UTG+2 checks, Hero checks.

River: (6 BB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="blue">(4 players)</font>
SB checks, BB checks, UTG+2 bets, Hero folds, SB calls, BB folds.

Final Pot: 8 BB

Results in white below: <font color="white">
SB shows As Jh (two pair, jacks and nines).
UTG+2 shows 8s 9s (three of a kind, nines).
Outcome: UTG+2 wins 8 BB. </font>

[cold_cash]

Hand 1 -- A perfect opportunity to check-raise the flop and protect a vulnerable hand. The player on the button in this hand may actually be a worse poker player than I am, and believe me, that's saying something.

Hand 2 -- You have a gut-shot to the possible nads and 2 over-cards. I think you played it just peachy-dandy.

[Jaran]

Hey turvalon,
I would prolly muck hand 1 pf, but I don't think completing is that terrible. I agree w/cold, checkraise the flop and lead the turn no matter what falls. If you get raised, you can let it go. Hand 2 is just fine (or, if you prefer, peachy-dandy)

-Jaran

[jacki]

you can complete the SB with almost any 2 suited when there are a few limpers in already. Folding would be bad in this spot.
Then you have to either lead out the flop, or check raise the flop. you can't be passive.

[yzerman18]

Hand 1

1.) I'd have bet out the flop. When I limp in from the blinds and I catch a piece of the the flop (and you've got Top Pair)I almost always bet. You can take control of the hand here by betting and you will take down a few pots. Obviously, not in this particular case.

2.) Since you elected to check, I would have check raised. A bet by the button in an unraised pot is often an attempt to steal it. If you get 3-bet, you can be pretty sure that you are behind. A big part of flop play is betting or raising in order to acquire information about your opponnets hands

3.) The Turn and River become more difficult to play since you have virtually no info on the button's hand.

[SeppDeitrich]

i actually think you played both hands well.

1) why wouldn't you complete in the sb is the question you should be asking.
on the flop you have top pair, your kicker sucks but you're still fine calling to take another card and see how things develop.
the turn gives you a flush draw in case you queen is no good, again you call, good.
the river you make the call expecting to lose most of the time, but you are still getting close to the right price, so folding would probably be wrong. I was surprised to see his hand at the end, too bad you didn't go runner runner on him, he was asking for it..

Hand 2


look at the result of your flop bet and you will see that it was a truly great play! you have 2 overcards + a gutshot straight draw so you have a great chance of making a strong hand on the turn, better than if you had a low flush draw.

Now when the turn comes and you have not made your hand your opponents let you see the river card for free even though one of them made trips on the turn! so in this example your small bet on teh flop gives you a free shot to draw on the river and take the whole pot down, great play just hope the cards come off better next time.

[Vern]

On the first hand, limping in the SB with a suited queen is fine. What you need to do though, IMHO, is find out on the flop where you are by leading out. Assuming you don't have a maniac note on the button, I would expect he would raise your flop bet. You can then either fold there figuring your kicker is no good or call and check out the turn. On the turn, you played it ok since you had second pair and a draw to the second flush. But no way do I call a bet on the river with second pair, no kicker with a three flush board in a protected pot. Actually, the sad thing is the Button opened up his AA to being cracked. AA on the button should raise. His failure to do so decreased his chances of winning while not growing the pot.

I don't think I play the second hand any differently, you raised PF and bought the button, good move. It was checked to you and there are really only 7 cards you want to see, a non-heart queen or king or a non-heart T. Betting here is good if you intend to check the turn if you miss and get to see the river for half a bet less or if you hit the turn, get paid half a bet more. In the long run, this play will make money, it just missed this time and you saved half a bet in getting to see all the cards. Nice job.

My $0.02
Vern

[Greg J]

nice to see you posting turv:

Hand one:

What the hell is the button thinking not raising this preflop???

The preflop limp for 3/5 of a bet is not unforgivable. If it were offsuit I would say no way. It's close, but i will often complete this if the table is right and if BB doesnt raise much. If button raises like he is SUPPOSED to there is no way you call this.

The flop: I come out betting here. you have top pair (no kicker though) and backdoor flush potential. If you are raised I would call. A raise tells you you might be beat right now.

Turn: checking/calling is okay here.

River: Tough one. You didnt make yr flush. You do longer have top pair. It all comes down to how much you respect this guy.

Hand 2:

Good preflop raise, esp if they are playing crap.

EDITED:
Flop: I changed my opinion on this one... I didnt initially see the gutshot (read your post too fast sorry). Raise is good here. Sorry it didnt work out.


**

Checking/calling is the right thing to do sometimes. Just be cognizant of when you are doing it so it doesnt become routine.

[sfer]

Checkraise the flop in hand 1. I wouldn't have called the river. You're beaten just a million ways to creation and he's value-betting into two of you. No way you're ahead.

Hand 2, I don't see another way to play it. Nicely done. Get a pattern map and you can bet or open-fold the turn with confidence. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Don't trust Bison. He's fond of your sister. Say that slightly drunk or with ice in your mouth and it sounds like "fondle your sister." See what I mean.

Welcome aboard.

EDIT: Oh yes, in a 1/2 blind structure you can loosen way WAY up in the SB. Like almost any 2 suited, etc etc. With 3 limpers you're getting 9 to 1 on your call. Very few hands are unprofitable with those immediate odds.

[imported_turvalon]

Thanks everyone... I guess I just need to get some confidence going. I think I understand the check raise on hand one. If I had that hand in late position (pretending I didn't fold preflop for some reason) and a person bet in front of me, I should raise as well right?

I'll have to refer to the pattern map....