I think I made a stupid.

[SpaceAce]

This happened at a $25 PartyPoker pot limit table.

I get QJs in the cutoff. A couple of limpers to me. I raise to 3x the big blind and get a couple of callers. The flop is three hearts, all low cards. I have clubs. It's checked around to me and I think for a second then check [Was this a huge mistake? Every time I've made a play at a pot all day, at least one person has called me down with a small pair like 22-55 or overcards that they hit on the turn or river.]

The turn is the Queen of spades and the first player makes a pot-sized bet. It's folded to me and I just call [This is the big stupid, I think. As soon as I called, I felt it was a terrible move. With three hearts on the board and a mediocre kicker, I should have either folded it right there or raised him. Which would have been appropriate?]

The river is a brick and my opponent makes a pot-sized bet (about 25 big blinds). I think, think, think and throw it away.

How bad was this? I think it was miserable. Should I have bothered with the raise or just dumped the hand to that first bet? My opponent could already have a made flush or another heart could fall. Even if he just has a Queen, it could be QK, QA or QX with his X matching one of the flop rags. How should I have played this?

I don't like pretty much anything I did in this hand.

SpaceAce

[Paul2432]

Pre-flop: Either just call or raise more. Your raise is not enough to get others to fold. This raise should only be done some of the time with QJs (perhaps 30%). Raise the same amount you would if you held AA.

Flop: I think giving up on the hand is a perfectly reasonable line of play here. A pot sized bet is also reasonable. BTW, it would be helpful to know the ranks. Was a straight possible? Where two cards touching in rank (or one gap), increasing the possiblity of two pair?

Turn: You should only play here if you think you have the best hand. You do not have odds to draw to anything. Once you decide to play I think a pot sized raise is mandatory with the intention of folding to any further action. Hopefully your opponent folds. Note that since you do not intend to call anymore bets after raising, you should probably just fold if your opponent is tricky or wild.

River: As you say your play does not constitute a coherent strategy. If you are going to fold here, you probably should not have called the turn unless the river card may have completed a draw (which I assume it did not since you called it a brick).

Paul

[SpaceAce]

Hi, Paul. Thanks for the reply.

I didn't mention ranks because they were total trash as far as my hand was concerned. I don't recall the exact ranks but there were no straight possibilities for me and I didn't think they would have made two pair for anyone. The cards were something like 2h6h8h.

I think you're right that I should have raised more pre-flop. The problem with that is I can only make a really sizeable bet if there have been a lot of limpers in front of me since this is pot limit. I guess my thinking was a bit passive. I figured that I wouldn't be able to raise enough to really scare a decent hand but that my 3x big blind raise would get rid of everyone if they were limping with real trash.

The turn is where I think I really goobered. As soon as I called, I was disgusted with myself. I got very timid there. I think folding was probably my best option because my opponent could easily have the flush or have paired his kicker on the junk flop. If I am not going to fold, I must raise.

Your comments about my river play were exactly what I thought as I made the call on the turn. I realized that he would probably just bet into me again and I would not be able to call unless it was a very weak bet. I think I basically threw money out the window on the turn.

Oh, well. Next time I'll do better. Thanks again for the reply.

SpaceAce

[ALL1N]

You may not think it, but you played the hand very well.

The small preflop raise is an excellent play with high suited cards after numerous callers. It has value on the merit of your hand and can also set up for a flop steal or buy you a free turn card.

Checking behind on the flop is best with 3+ callers. With only 2 callers, a steal could be considered, but games don't get much looser than $25 Party, so I'd just check behind.

Facing the turn bet, a raise is a bad bad idea. The times you are losing here are significant, and raising achieves very little. Calling as you did is far superior, and waiting to see what the river brings. Myself, I would usually fold, as the player who bet was the first to act, and unlikely to be bluffing or semi-bluffing. Calling is fine, and raising poor.

The river fold was good.

Well played.

[SpaceAce]

[ QUOTE ]
You may not think it, but you played the hand very well.


[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks for the response. Since the opinions are so far split down the middle, I'll just call myself half-stupid for now [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img].

Your reasoning for checking the flop is pretty much identical to mine. I thought there were just too many people to try a steal. At the very least, one of them was likely to have a big heart in his hand and want to draw to the flush.

I'm surprised to hear someone say calling was OK on the turn. I feel really crappy about that play. I hope this thread gets a few more replies so I can hear from more people about that specific move.

SpaceAce

[GrinningBuddha]

[ QUOTE ]
[Was this a huge mistake? Every time I've made a play at a pot all day, at least one person has called me down with a small pair like 22-55 or overcards that they hit on the turn or river.]

[/ QUOTE ]

You need to play like a robot in that you forget anything that's happened previously unless those particular players are in the hand with you right now . The cards don't have any memory, and if these are different players, there's no reason not to play the way that you think will win you the pot most often.

[ QUOTE ]
The turn is the Queen of spades and the first player makes a pot-sized bet. It's folded to me and I just call [This is the big stupid, I think. As soon as I called, I felt it was a terrible move. With three hearts on the board and a mediocre kicker, I should have either folded it right there or raised him. Which would have been appropriate?]

[/ QUOTE ]

You need to put him on a range of hands here. Flush, AQ, KQ, Qx, two pair, set, A [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] x. Some of these you beat, others not so much. A set is unlikely given the lack of a bet on the flop. I wouldn't necessarily put him on a flush either, but it's a possibility. A pot-sized bet to me says "Please fold your big heart". I probably fold here given the range of hands that are likely to bet this. I need a little more to go to war. Calling is probably the worst option.

[ QUOTE ]
The river is a brick and my opponent makes a pot-sized bet (about 25 big blinds). I think, think, think and throw it away.



[/ QUOTE ]

If you fold here, why did you call the turn? Were you looking to hit your Jack or another Queen? The pot odds didn't warrant it, and the implied odds weren't there. If you thought you had him beat, raise the turn, or at least call the river. You made this hand difficult by being so passive.

Bet the flop and see what happens next time. [img]/images/graemlins/blush.gif[/img]

[SpaceAce]

[ QUOTE ]


[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
You need to play like a robot in that you forget anything that's happened previously unless those particular players are in the hand with you right now .

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm sorry if I wasn't clear about this part. These were the same players. I had been at this table for quite some time and there had been very little table drift.

[ QUOTE ]
You need to put him on a range of hands here. Flush, AQ, KQ, Qx, two pair, set, A [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] x. Some of these you beat, others not so much. A set is unlikely given the lack of a bet on the flop. I wouldn't necessarily put him on a flush either, but it's a possibility. A pot-sized bet to me says "Please fold your big heart". I probably fold here given the range of hands that are likely to bet this. I need a little more to go to war. Calling is probably the worst option.

[/ QUOTE ]

As I said, I don't feel good about the call. As soon as I made it, I felt I should have folded. Second to folding, I thought a raise was appropriate since I was fairly sure he was on a Queen. My real concerns were whether he had a bigger kicker or maybe had paired his weak kicker on the flop. I also saw the flush as a remote possibility but I didn't really think he had it.

[ QUOTE ]
If you fold here, why did you call the turn?

[/ QUOTE ]

This was the main point of my post. I didn't like my hand enough to call another pot-sized bet on the river so I should have folded the turn or raised to try and see the river for free. I am wondering if those were both good options or if only the fold was reasonable.

As for betting the flop, I didn't feel too good about my check at first but the more I think about it, the more I think it was a reasonable move in this situation. Maybe next time I'll pot it just to see what happens.

SpaceAce

[SpaceAce]

Make that, "... showdown for free," not, "see the river for free."

SpaceAce

[Al_Capone_Junior]

I generally don't mess with one suited boards without one or two of the suit, pairs regardless. Even if your queens was the best hand, it's just too hard to decide for sure, and the pot was small when you had to face the original pot sized bet. If you fold the best hand in a small pot it's not that big a deal.

al

[SpaceAce]

[ QUOTE ]
I generally don't mess with one suited boards without one or two of the suit, pairs regardless. Even if your queens was the best hand, it's just too hard to decide for sure, and the pot was small when you had to face the original pot sized bet. If you fold the best hand in a small pot it's not that big a deal.

al

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, I probably should have just dumped it.

SpaceAce