To bluff or not to bluff

SofaCoach · #1 06-28-2004, 04:36 PM

I bet my OESD on the flop, and took my free river card. I didn't bluff the river because I figured one of them would call with any pair. Should I have semi-bluffed the turn? Stone cold bluff on river?

Party Poker 0.50/1 Hold'em (8 handed)

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
1 fold, UTG+1 calls, Hero calls, 2 folds, Button calls, 1 fold, BB checks,

Flop: (4.50 SB) T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (4 players)
BB checks, UTG+1 checks, Hero bets, Button folds, BB calls, UTG+1 calls.

Turn: (3.75 BB) T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (3 players)
BB checks, UTG+1 checks, Hero checks.

River: (3.75 BB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (3 players)
BB checks, UTG+1 checks, Hero checks.

Final Pot: 3.75 BB
Main Pot: 3.75 BB, between BB, UTG+1 and Hero. > Pot won by UTG+1 (3.75 BB).

Results in white below: 
BB shows As 5d (one pair, tens).
UTG+1 shows 5s 3s (two pair, tens and threes).
Hero shows Kd Qc (one pair, tens).
Outcome: UTG+1 wins 3.75 BB. 

Note: I usually open-raise with KQ at $1/2 or above but at .5/1 it doesn't thin the field so I usually limp from EP. comments welcome on that as well.

Gravy (Gravy Smoothie) · #2 06-29-2004, 11:07 AM

Given the preflop action up to you I would definitely raise. You may not thin the field all that much with your raise (maybe you lose one or two people because of it), but
1) KQ plays better against 4 or 5 people than against 6, and
2) so many people will coldcall with worse hands that it is to your advantage to raise, because you get more money in the pot when you are a favorite to win the hand.

Given that you didn't raise preflop the hand plays out a bit differently. With two overs and an OESD on the flop you have an easy bet if checked to. On the turn, if you don't hit a A, K, Q or 9, I would probably check behind as well with two opponents still in the hand. Finally, betting into multiple opponents on the river after they called a flop bet is usually a losing proposition, but there are times where you can bet if you know both opponents will chase but then fold the river.

RickDecker · #3 06-29-2004, 11:27 AM

Although I have no specific data, my high card ends up being good in these multi-way situations less than 5% of the time. Betting this river given the size of the pot is not a good idea.

Cheers,

Rick

chief444 · #4 06-29-2004, 11:56 AM

I normally raise KQo. In an 8-handed game I think this is a substantially easier pf raise than in a 10-handed game. 8-handed is no where near short-handed but minus two players does make it far more likely that a pf raise will result in 3-4 or less to the flop as opposed to 5-6.

Since you did not raise pf and checked the turn I would not bluff at the river against two opponents. You haven't really shown any strength so far so I find it unlikely that any pair will fold and ace high may also call. In other words, I don't think it's worth spending 1BB to bluff at a 3.75BB pot here, especially against loose opponents.

Piiop · #5 06-29-2004, 12:20 PM

Raise preflop. Bet the turn. Check the river.

B Dids · #6 06-29-2004, 01:10 PM

Raise preflop.

When it's checked to you on the turn, bet. If you get c/r-ed, kick something small and fluffy next to your computer.

Piiop · #7 06-29-2004, 01:17 PM

[ QUOTE ]
kick something small and fluffy next to your computer.

[/ QUOTE ]

also click fold

LeftBack · #8 06-29-2004, 01:23 PM

I didn't think "bluff" was in the Party Poker $.5/$1 vocabulary.

I don't see your semi-bluff, either. To me, the "semi" implies some kind of hand off the board, so that at least you have something if they call your bluff. E.g., two pair, if you raise a 3-suited board. Otherwise, am I missing something?

The final pot was only 3.75BB. If you're going to bluff, you need to commit to both the river and the turn, so it's going to cost 2BB, right? If you get BB and UTG+1 to call both streets, your effective odds are 2:9.75BB? That's not very good value consider the way Party'ers call, is it?

B Dids · #9 06-29-2004, 01:28 PM

NO.

You've still got an OESD. You can't assume he has a boat here (although I'd be happier if a 9 fell than if a A, because AT is a more reasonable holding). Call and fold unimproved on the river.

Piiop · #10 06-29-2004, 03:42 PM

i meant on the river after you called the turn checkraise and were still unimproved