Stud hand

So I'm playing in a Stud tournament on Sunday. I'm posting here since I believe the hand has nothing to do with tournament strategy and that I would have played it the same way in a ring game. It was still early in the tournament.


For the sake of pot odds and the like, we were playing 100-200 limits, antes of 10, bring in of 25.


So we are 8 handed:


6c brings it in. (tight old lady)

Jd calls (old man, predictable)

7h calls, (typical loose passive)

2 players fold

9s up calls. (typical lady)

(QcQs)7d ME! (I decide to flat call and go for the raise later since I can't knock anyone out.)


5 players in the pot.


4th Street:


I catch the 9h, the 7h catches a blank and all 3 other players pair their doorcard. JJ/99/66.


JJ checks, 7hX checks, 99 bets the double. Up to me.


I raise. First, the JJ man woulds have raised with jacks on 3rd. Second the 66 was the bring in so it does not mean 666 at all. Third, I have a 9 myself so that reduces the chances that 99 lady has trips.


Comments?


Results later...


Nicolas

Not crazy about the raise because I'd think you'd raise to either limit the field / get the pot heads-up - or to win more.


Given your description of the players, it's unkikely that more than 1 will fold - so it looks like a multiway to the river, unless someone comes back and jams you back here.


To win more? 3 of the 6 cards you need for 2 pair are dead, and also, when the 99 bets the double, despite it being unlikely she has trips, she might already have 2 pair. Unless she'll bet into a higher pair (J's) with a 3 flush? Aces and kings are completely live - could someone have a pair in the pocket? You might not have the best hand here and further, might need trips or better to win.

Nic,


I think you have to raise on 3rd street, especially in a tournament (this was at Foxwoods, right?). The goal with this hand should not be to take a shot at a large, multiway pot, but to reduce the field as much as possible and increase your chances of winning.


On 4th street, I think your decision is raise or fold. If you think she has trips you are obviously out of there, but if you put her on two underpairs (or worse) I think a raise is justified, as you will probably get it heads up against her (assuming your read on the jacks is correct) and you may even get a free card on 5th street.


How did it turn out?

I don't play much tournament poker, so it's hard for me to say what I'd do in a tournament, but,in live poker I would fold immediately to the bet. Once the 9's bets into the jacks, that means he has the jacks beat, probably with trips, even though you have the 9. The worst possible hand you could be up against is a 3 flush with AK in the hole.


Add in the remote chance that J's are slow playing and/or that 6's has the random 6, and I'd rather play the next pot. I'm out for just the bring in and now I have to invest two double 4th street bets just to hope everything works out and then I most likely have to improve anyway (and I have a 9 in hand).

I am assuming that this was early in the tournament and that the money is still relatively deep. Otherwise, it does become more of a tournament question than a stud question.


On third street, I do tend to limp in with big pairs once lots of people have limped in front of me. This is particularly true in my local stud tournaments, where the bring-in is half of the small bet (I hate that structure). In this case, the bring-in is only a third of the small bet, so a completion just might knock a few people out. I'm also more inclined to gamble in a tournament than in a cash game. I either want to build a giant stack, or I want to find a cash game to play in.


Having limped, I don't like the raise on fourth street. The old man just may have limped with two Jacks. I've seen other old men do that. Maybe you've played with this guy before and know his tendencies; I haven't (that I'm aware of, anyway). If he did that, he just might slow-play trips. The player with the pair of 9s ought to have Jacks (and therefore Queens) beaten, and while it's somewhat unlikely that she has trips, it's still within the realm of possiblity. If you knew she had two pair smaller than Queens, you'd continue, but you don't know that. She could have trips or two bigger pair, in which case you're sunk. As it is, you have to improve to win, and your side cards are slightly dead. Add to that the fact that the field has yet to act behind you, and I think you have a fold. It's a small pot, move onto the next one.

in a tournament i think you definitely should fold. if even one guy has trips and plays it close to correct you will lose a lot of chips.plus the JJ may checkraise.


in a ring game i can see your point. but you should still fold. you will not knock anyone out and even though you believe you have the highest pair one of them can have two pairs and you dont want to play four way. also there is the possibility that the JJ will check raise you. second best is calling. those players who were going to call anyway(if there were any)two bets might not call three. you are basically hoping to get lucky anyway and a raise will not accomplish much. third best is raising in my view.


Pat

Prince,


Raise on third. This is a tournament!! For one thing, your raise on third would make fourth easier to play.


When three people pair their doorcards, and especially when a smaller paired door is betting into a larger paired door. It is time to fold. Sure, sometimes you will fold a winner, but in the longrun you are doing the right thing. ( especially in a ringgame )


Since you didn't fold, well then the raise was correct.


CJ

Well that's exactly what I was thinking, about the multiway pot and making the pot large, that's why I didn't raise on 3rd since that raise couldn't reduce the field.


Nicolas

Thanks everyone for the comments, the hand seemed worthy of a discussion and since many of you more experienced stud players don't agree with each other, I'm glad I posted it. I'm working on my stud game these days and I certainly lack the experience many of you have.


First, let me says that when I said it had nothing to do with tournament strategy, I was somewhat wrong, the fact that is was a tournament is important, as it is less crucial to push marginal situations. The money was still deep and I would have made the same play in a ring game (maybe not anymore) but the fact is that I should have folded on 4th, since it was, at best, a marginal situation.


3rd Street:


I don't like raising here, even less in a tournament. I won't knock anyone out and the last thing I wan't to do is create a big multiway pot with a very vulnerable hand that likes less opponents. A raise would have been correct had my kicker been a suited connector, but I still would not make that raise very often in a tournament.


4th Street:


I don't know. You all make very valid points and I now believe I should have folded. At the time that the hand was played, I was fairly confident in my read that noone had trips. And the fact that my pair cards were somewhat dead even if noone had trips is a very valid point. I read the guy with JJ as weak when he checked, he looked like someone who wanted to see if any other player had the trips before acting, not like someone who was slowplaying. I read the lady with the 99 as not having trips (or a strong hand), by the way she said she was betting. The fact is, I was confident in my reads, knowing the players and tells etc...


Results:


After I raised, the 66 folded and the JJ thought about it and folded as well. It left me with the 99, as I was hoping for. I bet 5th and took my free card on 6th. I never improved and she showed 9922 which she said she had on 4th (I believe her).


The look on the JJ's face when I said I couldn't beat 2 lousy pair...I guess it set up my image for the rest of the tournament.


Thanks for the comments,


Nicolas

As some of the previous posts mentioned, even if your read was perfect (and it was), you were still behind in a relatively small pot with relatively dead cards.


Another slight insight, there's actually a large difference between Q's in this hand and aces. With aces, you would not run the risk of your making two pair and losing to a higher two pair in the case that the opponent simply had overcards or made running aces or kings. It's not a large probability but enough to change the decision on marginal hands (but I still would have folded buried aces in this spot as well).