Mucked hand rules altercation

[Victor]

Here is a hand I witnessed while playing live this weekend. It precipitated a yelling fight so I was wondering what the correct action was.

10-20 ring game (table stakes), I do not remember all the details but on the flop a player went all in (he had no chips left). On the river there were 2 players heads up plus the all in player. At these games heads up river betting is looked at as mean and unnecessary by a many players. So on the river when the 4th spade hit one of the players showed the other player his Ks and the other player mucked. After showing his Ks he threw it in the middle of the table and it hit one of the cards on the board (but not the muck). Then he flipped over his other card. So, basically he showed his cards one at a time and one card hit the board.

The allin player threw an absolute temper tantrum as the dealer was about to push the pot. He claimed that the player had mucked and the pot was his. Is this correct? IF a card hits the board is the hand dead? (I never thought so).

The director came over and behaved very childish as well. The allin player continued a verbal assault on the dealer and extended it to the director as he tried to sort things out. The director then stated, "Well, I was gonna have you guys split the pot, but since you wont stop yelling you lose." This is clearly idiotic, especially since it obviously pissed the guy off more. Anyway, my question is, is it acceptable to split a pot under these circumstances? (seems like a bad precedent to give someone part of a pot because the had a fit).

[SheridanCat]

Splitting the pot would have been the worst possible solution to the problem.

I have seen it posted on these boards that a card hitting the board is considered dead. If this is the rule in the room you play in, then that is the rule.

However, I have played in plenty of casino games where a card has hit the board and there has been no issue raised. I would never raise a stink about it, that's for sure.

Regards,

T

[steamboatin]

I have seen a number of times when plays would show their hands and lay them right on the board. So apparently at Caesar's IN this isn't an issue or the dealers let it slide. I think if they hit the muck, then they are dead.

[Turkish]

I saw something similar to this at the Bellagio last week. There was 3 way action on the river. The first player checked, the second player bet, the third player mucked, and before the first player got his cards into the muck the better had thrown his hand in. Luckily for him it didn't hit the muck but the first player was ready to take the pot from him which I think is really more or less unethical in itself.

[cardcounter0]

Technically, if a card touches the board the hand is dead.
Some card rooms are real sticklers about this, some aren't.

But it depends on how strictly the rule is enforced by the casino. Usually, if it is not enforced strictly, then it shouldn't be a one-time deal when Mr. ALL-IN-LOSER wants to raise a stink. If the dealer is able to determine whose cards are whose, then the dealer (and floor) decision is final. In this case, it seems awful obvious which player had the Ks, and his cards were not mixed in the muck. Easy Call.

And some one flashing the winning hand, and then throwing them into the muck, before he gets the pot or before the loser releases his hand, is just stupid and deserves to lose. Turn your cards over, if you have to show, fairly close in front of you with your fingers on them. Don't release them until the dealer pushes the pot your way.
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[BigBaitsim (milo)]

There is a reason behind every rule. Small-minded people enforce rules for the sake of rules alone. Wiser people understand the purpose for rules and apply them as such. While the fellow who tossed his cards out should have held onto them, he did win the hand and there was no doubt in anyone's mind of this.

I think the best example of such foolishness was the fellow's disqualification (I don't recall who the golfer was or exactly what year, but it was recent) for signing an incorrect scrorecard in the British Open a few years ago. The rule is in place to prevent cheating and verify scores, and this man was deprived of a big payday for an accidental error that had no impact whatsoever on the game or scores posted.

[steamboatin]

That seems like an odd rule though, the board is live, some of those cards are part of your poker hand. Touching the muck is more logical because those cards are dead and you wouldn't want a sleight of hand artist palming cards out of the muck to improve his hand.

[cardcounter0]

For just the reasons you mention. The strict interp of the rule is if any of your two cards touch any other cards, your hand is dead. If you get a couple of players flinging their cards every where at showdown, it is hard to say who had what, what was the board, and what was someone's hand.

A smart player keeps his cards in front of him and doesn't release until he is awarded the pot or is satisfied he is beaten. You'll never have a problem that way. Let the donkeys bray among themselves.

[TripleH68]

[ QUOTE ]
signing an incorrect scrorecard

[/ QUOTE ]

How about Roberto DiVicenzo during the 1968 Masters. He had made a birdie 3 on the 17th hole during the final round, which would place him in a tie with Bob Goalby for the championship. However, when he signed and returned his card to the Committee, his marker (Tommy Aaron) had recorded a "4" for the 17th hole. Roberto failed to catch the mistake. Thus he was forced to take the higher score, which allowed Goalby to win the green jacket by one shot.

As for poker I often flip my cards up near the board and appreciate the comments here. I will protect my hand better in the future to avoid any such altercation.

[jmark]

[ QUOTE ]
have seen a number of times when plays would show their hands and lay them right on the board.

[/ QUOTE ]

I see players do this all the time. It really irritates me. It's as if I wouldn't realize that the 2 in their hand matches the 2 that came out on the turn and the 5 matches the river card, so they have to take them and place them on top of the cards.