7CS8 – Suited Razz Hand on 3rd Street Against Two Raises

[Rick Nebiolo]

This was the last hand of the night for Hero in a 20/40 stud eight or better game. This hand had the big action bet of $30 posted on Hero’s left (a big action bet is placed when someone scoops a $400 pot, the normal action bet of $20 requires scooping a $200 pot). So this hand plays 30/60 with $3 antes and a $5 bring in.

Hero has (8d-7d) 3d and brings it in for $5. The action bet makes his forced raise to $30 with a Ks showing. A decent player calls $30 with a Jc showing. A 9c and Th fold. An aggressive semi-maniac (who had been on a rush and was playing with confidence) raises to $60 with the Ac. He would probably raise almost any ace in this spot and continue with aggression on later streets even if he catches fairly bad. A 7c folds. Hero is next. Should Hero reraise, call, or fold and is it a close decision?

Regards,

Rick

[Ray Zee]

hero should reraise and its not a close decision based on your parameters. now someone say why.

[Howard Burroughs]

Why, oh great one? Tell us more!

BTW, I like raising too but hey, I almost always like raising.


Thanks

H.B.

[Rick Nebiolo]

ray, Howard,

The reraise is to drop the two opponents on your left and get head up with the maniac with position. Now you can probably act last and control the betting against what figures to be a worse hand on average. It is unlikely the caller of the action raise (the decent player with a jack up) had trips. He more likely had jacks or a big pair and was waiting for the maniac to reraise (actually put in the second complete bet) and drive the others out.

I confess that I initially thought it was a close fold, but after I had time to ponder, thought was that reraising was the way to play if you do play. Hero thought it was an easy call hence our argument, but she could see the merit in raising third street and maybe fifth or sixth. She thought I was very wrong to think folding was a close decision and her call too loose.

In the hand, she caught a 9d on fourth, a 6h on fifth, a 6c on sixth, and non diamond seven on the river. Meanwhile maniac developed a low board and kept betting while the jack up hung in looking high but not a strong high. Maniac won with aces up (the up he got on the river).

Regards,

Rick

[Fraubump]

If your info on the player with the Ace showing is right that he would raise with any ace, a reraise should have a decent shot at getting it heads up with him. The $30 action bet is pretty much free money in the pot and getting it heads up to play for that seems desirable. The King is unlikely to have a playable hand and will likely fold. A pair of jacks will be hard pressed to call a double bet with an aggressive ace showing. If you don't knock everyone else out, you've still got a good hand: diamonds and low very live.

If the aggressive ace were a solid player, I would not make this move as I don't think you want to be heads up against aces (honestly, I probably wouldn't have thought of making this move, as my instinct with this hand is to keep players in and hope for a big scoop or at least a situation where you've got the only low going).

Here are a few two dimes simulations if you manage to get it heads up (note that even if the player has an optimal hand--aces and suited low) your ev is not so bad):

cards scoop HIwin HIlos HItie LOwin LOlos LOtie EV
8d 7d 3d 271008 289650 210325 25 268072 9865 112 0.694
Qs Ac 9h 76567 210325 289650 25 21474 3313 112 0.306

cards scoop HIwin HIlos HItie LOwin LOlos LOtie EV
8d 7d 3d 216199 281648 218309 43 216879 41969 230 0.611
Ac 5c Qh 104856 218309 281648 43 92865 10397 230 0.389

cards scoop HIwin HIlos HItie LOwin LOlos LOtie EV
8d 7d 3d 216199 281648 218309 43 216879 41969 230 0.611
Ac 5c Qh 104856 218309 281648 43 92865 10397 230 0.389

cards scoop HIwin HIlos HItie LOwin LOlos LOtie EV
8d 7d 3d 122613 159684 340296 20 198253 39437 144 0.428
Ac 5c Ad 194097 340296 159684 20 95008 8546 144 0.572

8d 7d 3d 124020 251657 248254 89 138409 119582 900 0.451
Ac 3c 2c 172527 248254 251657 89 247394 10744 900 0.549

cards scoop HIwin HIlos HItie LOwin LOlos LOtie EV
8d 7d 3d 161311 172126 327865 9 267732 9903 101 0.519
Ac Qd Qh 142004 327865 172126 9 21422 3309 101 0.481

[Bill Murphy]

Who dat who prattles on about mediocre lows w/high possibilities playing best headsup? [img]/forums/images/icons/laugh.gif[/img] It's an auto re-raise, unless Ace is a rock, then its an easy call. BTW, with the action button out, could Hero have brought it in for 60?

Did Hero raise on 4th or 5th? Your "why?" response is very good, BTW.

[Andy B]

As much as I like limping and re-raising, I am reluctant to do so against an Ace when I don't have one. That said, if the Ace really is a maniac, then I think a re-raise is good. You should get it heads-up with what is likely a weak hand with a decent amount of dead money in there. And you will have position throughout the hand unless you pair up or something, and pairing up shouldn't be so bad.

I would be somewhat concerned about the guy with the Jack. The only hand I can see calling with in his spot is (JJ)J. He can't have a three-flush because of all the clubs that are out, or can he? I'd raise right away with a big pair if I was going to play it. The looser he is, the less you have to worry about it.

Calling is defensible. Folding is not.

[Ray Zee]

yea thats right. and everyone got it of course. but the thing that everyone who reads this post should get from it, is that it is not just what you start with. its how you play the cards that count. the same hand can be disaster if played badly. that can explain where alot of players lose to loosey gooses, as they dont play correctly the hands they sit around for hours waiting for.

[Rick Nebiolo]

Bill,

You wrote: ”Who dat who prattles on about mediocre lows w/high possibilities playing best headsup?”

Um, the Twodimes simulator as used by Bill Murphy?

”It's an auto re-raise, unless Ace is a rock, then its an easy call.”

I had just sat behind Hero, her mountain of chips was racked, and we were about to leave. I had been in the game earlier (recycling my hour penalty there to avoid a bad main game in holdem) when the semi-maniac wasn’t playing as fast because he had the horses to occupy him (this was at Hollywood Park).

I haven’t been diligent regarding my study of this game lately because I’ve been busy with work and the holidays. My quick initial reaction was that Hero should fold but that it was close. Hero vehemently disagreed and she was right that I was wrong to consider folding. On the ride home I realized that if it is a play, re-raising was right as long as the jack up was unlikely to have trips. Hero asked that I post using neutral language.

”BTW, with the action button out, could Hero have brought it in for 60?

No. Hero must bring it in for $5 and anyone playing in front of an action bet (in the general case, in this case action bet was on Hero’s immediate left) must fold or just call the bring in. The action bet acts as a raise in turn with right of last action. When the action bet is NOT out, the bring in can come in for a full bet ($20). Weird when you think about it. Anyway, this method is common in Los Angeles where the 20/40 stud/8 game goes at the Commerce, the Bike, and Hollywood Park. Only Hollywood uses the big action bet on $400 scoops making it 30/60. I don’t get out of town much and wonder if this structure or anything like it is used elsewhere.

”Did Hero raise on 4th or 5th?”

No. But I may have crimped her style by sitting behind in this case and I feel badly about this. Just before the hand started I had picked up her racks but she said “Let me play one more hand with the three dollar chips to ante”. Unfortunately, she missed everything. Sometimes I feel like a black cat.

”Your "why?" response is very good, BTW.”

I’m still at the point where it takes me about an hour to figure out the right play if it is the least bit tricky. I’m not sure I can help Hero because her stud/8 game is far more advanced than mine. But I know where to get help [img]/forums/images/icons/grin.gif[/img]

Regards,

Rick

[Rick Nebiolo]

Andy,

You wrote: ”As much as I like limping and re-raising, I am reluctant to do so against an Ace when I don't have one.”

Hero can’t do anything with low card showing except bring in for the minimum. See my post under Bill Murphy for discussion of the structure.

”That said, if the Ace really is a maniac, then I think a re-raise is good. You should get it heads-up with what is likely a weak hand with a decent amount of dead money in there. And you will have position throughout the hand unless you pair up or something, and pairing up shouldn't be so bad.”

When I was in the game earlier his play was loose but not maniacal because his gambling energy was directed at betting the horses (he had so many complex bets in each race my head was spinning listening to him get his bets in with the runner). But the combination of the fact that the races were over and the fact he was on a rush turned him into a total maniac.

”I would be somewhat concerned about the guy with the Jack. The only hand I can see calling with in his spot is (JJ)J. He can't have a three-flush because of all the clubs that are out, or can he? I'd raise right away with a big pair if I was going to play it. The looser he is, the less you have to worry about it.

I may have not been careful enough regarding the other suits (except that Hero’s diamonds were live) in my initial post so his clubs may have not been as dead as indicated. I was concerned about trips; however, because of the maniac (who was a raising maniac but not a re-raising maniac) he could call with a pair of jacks and see what would happen. He would figure the ace would raise, the seven was held by a rock so he would need to be strong to call, and Hero’s bring in is only $5 so she also needs to be strong to call. In other words, he figures the ace will raise for him and he can get away from the hand if two lows call or the king re-raises.

”Calling is defensible. Folding is not.”

This will be music to Hero’s ears.

Regards,

Rick