Psychology of the Tough Fold in Limit Hold 'em

[DarkForceRising]

The pain of never knowing if I made the correct choice is the primary cause of making those expensive calls. I am getting better at tossing the TPTK type hands when confronted with a turn raise or check-raise (special situations, maniacs, hidden outs and huge pots noted).

The real test, though, seems to be when I have TT, JJ or QQ, no overcards are present and the opponent told me with 3 bets or a cap pre-flop and strong betting on the flop that he has AA or KK.

I will become increasingly suspicious that I am beat (more often just plain convinced). Yet, I will throw in a turn raise only to get played back at and ultimately shown a better hand. Sure, there are exceptions when I catch someone with 88 or AK but it does not compensate for the times I lose.

Since SSHE hit the bookshelves the art of folding has taken a backseat. It is easy to rationalize ones' self into playing too many hands and not folding marginal holdings in situations that do not justify proceeding by (sub-consciously intentionally?) mis-interpereting Millers' book.

Just because it is not a $300/$600 game does not mean every player is a "donk".

The root of my poker problems over the years is not making "terrible" folds. The problem is fearing that I will make a bad fold and get bluffed out of a relatively small pot. Not to mention the sick need to "see what they got".

Like so many of us do when we post in the psych forum I am answering my pwn questions as I type this. However, publicly acknowledging my failures puts pressure on me to improve.

Discuss.

[yvesaint]

What's more taxing? Going all the way to showdown only to see that your guts were completely right and you ignored all signs of being beat, or making a big, difficult, tough fold, only to have your opponent flip over complete trash?

For the average player, I think the second is more psychologically taxing, which is why so many people find it tough to fold, and have to just 'make sure he isn't bluffing'.

[DarkForceRising]

[ QUOTE ]
What's more taxing? Going all the way to showdown only to see that your guts were completely right and you ignored all signs of being beat, or making a big, difficult, tough fold, only to have your opponent flip over complete trash?

For the average player, I think the second is more psychologically taxing, which is why so many people find it tough to fold, and have to just 'make sure he isn't bluffing'.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ahhh, yes. The premiums I have paid to insure against the pain of being bluffed...

You got the con-artist in me dreaming up some very lucrative protection schemes geared towards the discriminating player.

[jzpiano14]

I used to have the same problem but after a couple hundred times of doing this, I finally learned (tough to believe) to trust my gut instinct and if I fold the best hand on occasion, well then so be it.

The bigger the pot, the more likely you should be and more comfortable you should be making a crying call.

The smaller the pot, the more likely you should be and the more comfortable you should be for releasing your marginal holdings.

Although this is obviously is not the best answer all the time but I say... your guts got you this far in life... so trust the gut. For a quick reference... my gut is huge!!!

-Stroker

My gut is tight and weak vs shots. I dont trust it one bit.

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The bigger the pot, the more likely you should be and more comfortable you should be making a crying call.

The smaller the pot, the more likely you should be and the more comfortable you should be for releasing your marginal holdings.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is a great reiteration of the concepts in SSHE. At the low limits I play, unless I have seen a player bluff or have specific notes, a raise means an immediate re-evaluation of the pot size, the odds, and my outs to improve. If they are against me, I fold. It's hard to get used to doing that but you have to or you will just bleed chips.

I will also say I went through a period where I felt like everyone was bluffing and pretty much anytime I had a piece of the flop I was in it until the river. I lost a lot of BBs. Needless to say that was after a great rush and before reading SSHE. [img]/images/graemlins/crazy.gif[/img]

[RiverDood]

Isn't this largely a question of how big the stakes are -- and how much "one more bet" really matters to players?

At nano-limit poker, to pick an extreme example, people constantly pay another 4c to see if their pocket 6s might be good, or might turn into a set, no matter what the board is or how everyone else is betting. Nano-limit players make endless "curiosity calls" because 4c doesn't matter much to them.

As the stakes get higher, financial discipline usually starts to override players' curiosity factor. Making a good laydown becomes compelling only when the savings really matter to you, or when you develop pride in walking away from trouble. For some people this happens at the $5/10 level; for others at the $100/200 level. For some, it never happens -- and then playing cards can lead to all the classic bad outcomes.

It took me nearly a year of steady play before I had the discipline to throw away AA on the turn in a low-stakes game, knowing I was beat. But of all the times I've played AA, that's the one I can recall most clearly.

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As the stakes get higher, financial discipline usually starts to override players' curiosity factor.

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If a player is thinking in terms of dollars instead of bets, he is a bad player, or just playing way out of his bankroll.