Switching gears in low stakes Party SNG (5-20$)

A_PLUS · #1 02-10-2005, 12:56 PM

I follow the same basic formula that most winning players follow for the party SNGs. I am extremely tight early on, only straying for Axs or a small PP in late position in an unraised pot, knowing that I will double through a fish if I hit my set or nut flush.

Sometimes I am fortunate enough to makje a hand in the first 30, after which I am fine.

But often enough, after the 1st 30 hands, I may have limped into 2-3 pots, lost and now sit at 500-600TC, with the blinds coming to 50-100. Generally we now have 5-6 players left. The problem is, these players still aren't good, and more often than not you get little folding equity for your 500+ chips. In this spot, an extra 200-300 chips are invaluable. You can afford to see a few flops, or wait another round or so before having to push.

So, my question. Does anyone actively try to avoid the 500TC area earlier in the game when an opportunity presents itself. [an example would be making an aggressive semi-bluff against a player you think is alert and tight enough to fold their hand]. I have been trying this approach more, leaving myself open to plays during the 25-50 round, where if I lose, I am essentially going to be pushing my next Ace or 2 broadway cards.

I've had some good success with this at the 20-30$ level. As I feel more players are alert enough to make a move against. Also, I have usually seen 3-4 players per table, who are actively trying to avoid questionable situations before the 50-100 level, making them easy targets.

At the 5-10$ level, I think you are probably better off playing the waiting game.

asofel · #2 02-10-2005, 01:04 PM

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I am extremely tight early on, only straying for Axs or a small PP in late position in an unraised pot, knowing that I will double through a fish if I hit my set or nut flush.

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But often enough, after the 1st 30 hands, I may have limped into 2-3 pots, lost and now sit at 500-600TC, with the blinds coming to 50-100.

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The first quote doesn't jive with the second, in my experience. I'll play this same way but if I limp in late in 3 hands and don't hit anything, i'll have at least 7xx chips by the 25-50 blinds. At this point I start looking for raise opportunities. A few late position raises of anywhere from 150-250 seem to get the job done and then I'm usually slightly above average stack. Keep building from there and really start letting some aggressive moves out, where applicable.

As you said, I don't think you can get the low stakes players to fold much, so as usual, don't bluff often, bet for value, and make them pay off your good hands.

Scuba Chuck · #3 02-10-2005, 01:45 PM

A+, assuming you don't play a single hand in levels 1-3, you will be starting level 4 with 655 chips.

I think you'll find that you must be bleeding some chips in the earlier levels with your hand selections. Frankly, I don't recommend playing Axs anytime, with or without position. The reason is because you seldom get PAID off for that hand. Flushes are seldom unseen, unlike a disguised straight, which when made, pays handsomely.

Another thought, I see this continuously, but if you're on the button with 33, and there are 5+ limpers in front of you, then it pays to limp. If there are fewer limpers it doesn't pay. Statistically, you only hit your set 1 in 8 times. That means you need 8 players in the pot for this to be a positive net result. 5 + you on the button, with the BB and SB is a good number. All too often I see even the newer 2+2ers asking me why I didn't limp in with 44 or something. If you're playing the $55s, where you start with 1,000 chips you can gamble with this a little, but with 800 chips, IMO, you're just bleeding.

So, try tightening up your preflop strategy a little bit for a few games, and see if that changes some things. If you're looking for new ways to pickup small pots, or the blinds, do so from the button on level 3. But even this can be dangerous.

In this spot, an extra 200-300 chips are invaluable.
Very correct statement. In fact, just an extra 100 chips are invaluable.

You can afford to see a few flops
If this is your SnG strategy on Level 4+, here is another place where you are bleeding chips. In general (and especially in levels 1-3), be the aggressor, or fold. The only time it pays to limp is if you've got a monster brewing. If you don't have the type of hand you can be aggressive with, then you know folding is the correct decision.

But often enough, after the 1st 30 hands, I may have limped into 2-3 pots, lost and now sit at 500-600TC, with the blinds coming to 50-100. Generally we now have 5-6 players left. The problem is, these players still aren't good, and more often than not you get little folding equity for your 500+ chips.

I could say a lot about this previous statement, but I will focus on just one aspect. You will benefit by becoming a student of Folding Equity. A failure to fully understand this concept is what is preventing you from attaining the results you expect. I am inferring here that you are a student of poker, but not a student of folding equity. For instance, I don't recollect you posting any HHs in the past month or so saying, "is this a good push?" and a subsequent comment as to your thinking why you have folding equity against the villain.

Let me make an example, 6 handed level 4. Hero is UTG with 650 chips. Hero is dealt A7s. Should you push?

Homework assignment. Answer the above question, and be sure to factor in all the relevant game factors into your decision model. In fact anyone interested in these concepts feel free to try and answer.

DireWolf · #4 02-10-2005, 01:54 PM

I don't really understand your statement about not limping with small pairs unless you have 8 other limpers. When do you ever get 8 limpers, i haven't seen it too much. Also, don't you have to take into account implied odds as well. Maybe you should't play the small pairs with one or two limpers, but i would think 4 limpers would give you enough odds/implied odds if you do hit your set, to make it worth it.

Scuba Chuck · #5 02-10-2005, 01:54 PM

A few late position raises of anywhere from 150-250 seem to get the job done and then I'm usually slightly above average stack.

Again, I caution you on this move. I think if you're on the button with AJs, folded around to you, this move will work more often than not. But opportunity doesn't always knock. There is more opportunity to make up chips on level 4, where stealing 150 chips is more worthwhile, than the 75 chips in level 3.

I really don't think the above general statement is good long term advice. But I do know it works. Essentially you're beginning the blindstealing mode in level 3 vs. level 4. For what, 75 chips? But you are probably setting yourself up for being called in level 4, where stealing really matters. Just MHO.

Ask yourself, "how many times can you steal, successfully over a 2 round period?"

Scuba Chuck · #6 02-10-2005, 01:59 PM

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Maybe you should't play the small pairs with one or two limpers, but i would think 4 limpers would give you enough odds/implied odds if you do hit your set, to make it worth it.

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I'm fine with this. Each person has their own strategy. Level 1, I'm on board with this for sure. Level 3, I'm folding. My experience with baby pairs over many SnGs is that it bleeds more than it adds. Furthermore, there was a post over the last 2 days about the results of a hand where hero hit his set on the flop with 3s. Hitting the flop does not ensure you win the pot. But hitting a set is very nice most of the time.

Frankly, I find significantly more success maximizing my folding equity than hoping to hit a set. I would believe playing for sets has a lot more ring game value than SnG value.

Thus the reason for my subsequent homework question: Any takers?

spentrent · #7 02-10-2005, 03:03 PM

Regarding your homework question: I think that the average calling hand would be KT-Ax... so I'm likely facing a coinflip. My answer changes when I know how big the blinds' stacks are (and the other players' stacks as well) -- some are more willing to live or die on a coinflip than others.

I can't picture this, UTG, as a textbook push or a textbook fold. Now tell me why I am wrong [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img].

two_dogs · #8 02-10-2005, 03:42 PM

This will probably be just rambling but I am trying to get a handle on this fold equity thing.
Ok you push your t650 the co and button are getting 1.2 to 1 odds the sb is getting 1.3 and the bb is getting 1.45 so they're not getting good pot odds to call but how do you calculate the % they will call? Most of the SnG players I'm up against I have very litte data on. I think I understand it depends on their tight/loose calling standards * the percentage of times they will hold such hands but how do you reasonably arrive at such conclusions with limited data at the 20s and 30s where you don't get a good data sample size.
I told you this was a ramble feel free to flame me.

unfrgvn · #9 02-10-2005, 03:49 PM

Ok, let me say that I don't disagree with the advice that is already been given in this thread. Playing tight is probably the quickest way for a losing player to become a winner. However, I have been opening up my game a little more, in response to the changes in the Party 10+1 SNG's(I believe that for the most part, they are playing tighter than they did a few months ago). I play tight for the first round or so, until I see how it's going. If pre flop raises are getting respect, then I'm going to open more pots for a raise then I used to. If I get reraised, then I probably have an easy fold. If I get called, often a continuation bet will take the pot on the flop, provided the raise has gotten it heads up. Also, if I've opened a few pots for a raise already it makes it easier to get action when I do catch a premium hand. I'm not advocating being a maniac, but I am talking about open raising hands like KQ, KJ, QJ, in POSITION, with no limpers in front. Often the only caller you get is from the BB who feels compelled to defend his blind.

Here's a hand history of a hand I would have folded 2 months ago, that turned into a nice win.
Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t30 (10 handed) converter

SB (t1375)
Hero (t712)
UTG (t790)
UTG+1 (t953)
UTG+2 (t1155)
MP1 (t415)
MP2 (t565)
MP3 (t650)
CO (t760)
Button (t625)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
1 fold, UTG+1 raises to t60, 2 folds, MP2 calls t60, 3 folds, SB calls t45, Hero calls t30.

Ok, 34s is nothing to write home about. But, I'm last to act getting 7-1 on my T30. I call.
Flop: (t240) 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (4 players)
SB checks, Hero checks, UTG+1 checks, MP2 checks.

Not a bad flop for my hand, but with a pair on board I'm going to check and see what happens.

Turn: (t240) T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (4 players)

Checked around and now I have a flush draw to go with the OESD.

SB bets t30, Hero calls t30, UTG+1 folds, MP2 folds.

SB bets 30 into a 240 pot. I'm not folding with 13 possible outs.

River: (t300) 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets t300, SB calls t300.

I made my str8. True, if sb has 89 I'm in bad shape, but he has been an aggressive player, and I think he would have bet a made str8 harder than this. I bet the pot.

Final Pot: t900

Results in white below: 
SB has Ts Kc (two pair, tens and sixes).
Hero has 3d 4d (straight, seven high).
Outcome: Hero wins t900. 

Did I get lucky? Sure. Will I have to lay down on the flop a big percentage of the time? Yes. But for a T30 call I got to see 4 cards and win 15 BB's and if I hit nothing it's an easy fold. As an aside, the SB chatted nice catch. What I wanted to say is what do you expect, giving me 8-1 pot odds with 13 outs. What I did say was ty.

spentrent · #10 02-10-2005, 03:57 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I play tight for the first round or so, until I see how it's going. If pre flop raises are getting respect, then I'm going to open more pots for a raise then I used to. If I get reraised, then I probably have an easy fold. If I get called, often a continuation bet will take the pot on the flop, provided the raise has gotten it heads up.

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I'm right here with ya. Continuation bets with nothing are not for the faint of heart, but they SHOULD be. A good chant to repeat is "I raised pre-flop, therefore I am allowed to represent AA|KK|QQ|AK."