When to jam with a flush draw

[lunchmeat]

I understand that it's correct to raise and reraise with a flush draw (especially an ace high draw)on the flop against several opponents, but I often read people's posts here advocating raising with these types of suited hands pre-flop against a lot of callers. Since suited cards are something like a 15-1 or 16-1 dog to make a flush, wouldn't you need 15 or 16 callers (an unlikely event even if you pushed two no fold 'em tables together) to make this raise correct?

[thomastem]

Suited connectors can have proper odds for a pre-flop raise. I suggest as an exercise for you take 10-J suited and figure the odds to hit either a flush or straight. Post your results so we can correct if it's wrong.

Not only is my chicken missing but my buzzard got away too.

[Glenn]

You can win without making a flush, so no, you don't need 15 callers. Also, there are many other benefits to raising besides just the value in showdown win % such as having people check to you on the flop, being in control of the pot, etc...

[rkiray]

Generally raising with suited cards other than AK or AQ is incorrect, but there are many exceptions.

1) in a tough game with observant opponents, you should occasionally raise with a hand like 67s. This is mainly for deception purposes, to make you more difficult to read.

2) If a wild raiser raises before you and no one has called yet, you can raise with lots of cards to try to isolate him. This would include any suited A or K and any two suited cards 9 and higher.

In general, suited connectors down to 56 are playable for one raise as long as you are confident that you will have at least three opponents. But you should rarely raise with them.

[thomastem]

So you are saying that at low limits, 6 people already in you are on the button with J-10 suited you are only calling? I think you are losing profit here.

I say that you raise and build the pot. After that I try to relocate my buzzard. [img]/forums/images/icons/blush.gif[/img]

[lunchmeat]

OK, I really tried to calculate the exact odds of flopping either a straight or a flush with JTs, but my feeble mathematical skills aren't up to the task. I did read that you are a 16.3 to 1 underdog to make the flush, and as far as I can tell a straight is about the same (I'm guessing that the fact that straights are easier to make than flushes- because they're ranked lower- is cancelled out by the fact that sometimes your straight cards will make a flush or straight flush). So if my guess is right, it's still about 8-1 against making a big hand.

In case you're curious, I do raise with a hand like JTs in late position in a multiway pot... because Sklansky says to do this in HEFAP. And I think this is correct because you can miss your draws, but still sometimes win with a pair. I don't, however, raise with hands like A8s and 76s because there are fewer ways to win.

[XlgJoe]

The odds that the flop will contain 2+ cards of your suit is about 7.5 to 1. Thats why preflop you can raise with a suited hand with a lot of limpers. Try to build a big pot, which everyone is committed to. When you get a flop that you like you can keep betting, otherwise just fold. Myself I would prefer to have Ax or Kx suited, but some people will raise any two suited.

[thomastem]

That is without the straight draw and Trips figured in. That is without considering deception (putting you on Js or better).
That is without considering variance (Not sure if you are on a draw or high pair for future raises).

If you don't want the profit that these draws and deceptions give you should then just check.

[ChipWrecked]

Looks like Izmet's site isn't up anymore. You might want to search his name at RGP, he used to post on this subject quite a bit there in the late 90's.

[Jimbo]

Here is the link to Izmet Fekali and his pearls of wisdom on loose games.