Who goes for the C/R here?

SoCalPat · #1 06-30-2004, 02:31 AM

You'll get a kick out of what the CO had.

Paradise Poker 1/2 Hold'em (8 handed)

Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
1 fold, Hero raises, 2 folds, CO calls, 2 folds, BB calls,

Flop: (6.50 SB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (3 players)
BB checks, Hero bets, CO calls, BB calls.

Turn: (4.75 BB) J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (3 players)
BB checks, Hero checks, CO bets, BB calls, Hero raises, CO calls, BB calls.

River: (10.75 BB) K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3 players)
BB checks, Hero bets, CO calls, BB folds.

Final Pot: 12.75 BB
Main Pot: 12.75 BB, between Hero and CO. > Pot won by Hero (12.75 BB).

Results in white below: 
Hero shows Jd Js (three of a kind, jacks).
CO shows 8h Kh (two pair, kings and eights).
Outcome: Hero wins 12.75 BB.

MarkD · #2 06-30-2004, 02:42 AM

I don't like the CR on the turn. With only one opponent behind you yet to act on that very draw heavy board I would prefer to bet and make sure the turn doesn't get checked through. Also, it gives them the chance to raise you which isn't that bad. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

I don't understand why I'd get a kick out of the CO's hand. His only mistake as I see it is the pre-flop call. He played the rest of the hand fine. Actually, he should consider raising you on the river although with your turn check raise it makes it harder to raise the river but still looks right.

SoCalPat · #3 06-30-2004, 03:01 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Also, it gives them the chance to raise you which isn't that bad.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree 100 percent, and I'm an advocate of betting out strong hands in hopes of being raised so I can make it 3. I had the CO on a weak ace, and wanted to punish him for it. It's a move I rarely make, hence my posting of the situation.

However, I think the COs flop call and turn bet are horrible. I could justify a flop call if he had an overcard to the board or additional draws. He has neither, and getting 7.5-1 just doesn't cut it absent those factors.

For mostly the same reason, I don't like his turn bet. If he had top pair, it would be good. But with two other players in the pot, he can't expect to get out alive with bottom pair.

Gravy (Gravy Smoothie) · #4 06-30-2004, 11:37 AM

I disagree with your reasoning on why CO played his hand badly. On the flop, he has plenty of outs - any 8 or K is likely clean, and any heart gives him a backdoor to the second nuts. Your check on the turn signals weakness - he thinks your preflop-raise-worthy hand missed on the flop and you fired one on the flop to try and get everyone to fold. He is now semibluffing...you might fold the turn, he might make a winning hand on the river. Except for the preflop call I would probably follow his line...although it's probably a toss-up between betting or checking the turn through, player-dependent.

chief444 · #5 06-30-2004, 11:50 AM

I agree for the most part. I think the flop call is close with the Ace on the board. The K outs may not be clean so this may be a better fold. The turn is fairly close as well. The pf call is obviously bad but I've seen much worse. All-in-all I've seen much worse play than CO's in this hand.

MarkD · #6 06-30-2004, 01:59 PM

Umm... this flop call isn't that close really. CO is getting 7.5-1 on this call. He has 5 outs that he has to think are pretty damn good (putting a pre-flop raiser specifically on AK is playing scared). He also has a backdoor flush draw worth 1-2 outs.

Do the math on it and tell me that the flop call is bad. Everyone here should be routinely making this flop call here in this spot getting these pot odds. 7.5-1 is good enough odds to call without the back door flush draw, the back door draw tips the scales to make this not close.