So how much are we raising AA preflop now?

[1800GAMBLER]

From this thread we covered the hands dangerous to AA when the implied odds are right.

So if the implied odds are 10x of the intial raise it's worthwhile calling with a pocket pair against AA:

Rule of thumbs from PL & NL poker (Ciaffone and Ruben's)

Rules of "Fives and Tens"

What % of your stack would a call be:

under 5% : Auto call
5% to 10%: Jugement call
over 10% : Auto fold


This assume both plrs have same stack or opponent has you covered. If opponent has less then you, then what % of IS stack would a call be.

--

So how much are we going to raise AA preflop now? I'm crashing to bed now so i'll post my thoughts tomorrow.

Thanks all.

[Al_Capone_Junior]

I realize you've thought about the math of all this quite a bit. But you don't need it. There's a simple rule that I use: if they have plenty of chips, then there's sufficient implied odds to "go for it." Now I AM mathematically inclined, even tutored math in college. But you really don't need all that to figure out the situation.

Say I have 22 and a "fairly solid" player makes a raise BTF. Do I want to call them? Well, I look at my stack vs. their stack. If they have more than 7.5 times the amount I must call, then I start to think about calling their bet. It's the standard "odds against flopping a set" rule. When they have 15 or 20x the raise, and I have enough to charge them that much, then I am drooling with anticipation, hoping to flop a set. Now say a guy with $100 raises $20 BTF. Now, I ain't calling his ass with a pair of deuces. He ain't deep enough to cover the investment, so it's not worth it to try and outflop him. Now if a guy with $100 raises $3, sure, I'll call him in a heartbeat, as long as my stack is big enough where I can break him, or close to it. I don't need the math to figure this out.

For that matter, when I have a hand that wants implied odds, I WANT my opponent to have a big hand! Just like ol' Doyle... it's right out of the book. AK raises, I have 22. I want a flop of A 2 X so I can break him. I have 87s. I want a flop of A 6 9 rainbow. I might make a move on him and take the pot, or might catch a straight and break him that way.

I really don't care exactly which hand has the greatest potential to beat AA. Who cares! I just want an opponent who I can break with the right flop, someone who will take a hand like top pair too far.

al

[AeonBlues]

I really apreciate this post. I never read about the 5% 10% rule, but it makes total sence. When I thought through the game logic, I settled on 10% of the smaller stack between me and my opponet. The reson you have to go higher is that for every time you flop a set, you have some serious reverse implied odds, if you are beat. So, there's about a 12.75% chance that you flop a set, and every time you call against a bigger pair pre flop, and hit a set, you will be beat by a better set by the river about 17.4 % of the time that you hit your hand... Other outs will beat your set too a fair # of times. So, I settled on 10% being the nesessary implied odds to cover the reverse implied odds when I lose.

Another interesting point...

In certain games I have found the 10% rule to be very effective when betting big pairs. The fact is, when I bett over 10% of the stacks, I can get quite liberal after the flop, as I'm in a no lose zone, and no matter what happens, I will win in the long run, because of my initial bet. Against many players I have done things like go all in affter the flop with KK, after an A hit the board, and shown down with the best hand offten enough to justify the pot odds. But it's the feeling of immortality that my first bet gave me, that gives me the gumption to call, or bet all in, and beat all the JJ hands that are trying to buy the big pot...

Unfortunately I have had to raise less than 10% with big pairs, if I want to get any action on the 1-2 NL game at party, generaly speaking... You are signifigantly more likely to get action on your 15% raises on the .5 - 1 NL games at party.

AeonBlues

P.S: It's times like this that I really wish 2+2 would make a Big bet book. I wonder if I will have to figure out all these things in my head, and in the forum, which takes a lot more work than paying $29.95 for the soft bound edition.

[Greg (FossilMan)]

The answer is really quite simple.

Raise the same as you would with any other hand with which you would choose to raise under those circumstances.

Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)

[1800GAMBLER]

I was trying to move away from the last post and change the idea. This time we have AA. I'm wondering if people are going to raise more than 10x their stack just over the fear of another pocket pair being out there.

Since it's around 5% around pocket pair will hit a set in a full game and a raise that size will stop all the hands you want calling to call i.e. AQ, KQ, KJ, and the any suited these player play for 8x the blinds once they have limped.

Picking up the blinds with AA always seems a waste in an aggressive game.

[Al_Capone_Junior]

On the initial raise, I don't always raise so much of my stack that small pairs can't call with implied odds. Sometimes I do, especially in tourneys with large blinds, but when I have a big stack in a ring game with small blinds, not always. I just don't worry about it that much. If I'm in a 50c BB game, and I have 50$, I don't open raise for $10, otherwise I'd just steal the blinds most of the time, and I actually do want action on my aces. Once in a while, someone will correctly call with sufficient implied odds to hit their set, and get there. I hope I can release the hand after the flop when that happens.

al

[tewall]

Greg brings up a good point that you need to raise in a way that doesn't give away your hand.

In my mind I separate things into two cases. One where the stacks are deep and one where they're not. If they're not deep it's easy to get over 10% in and even all-in, which is of course what you're hoping for.

If the stacks are deep it may be very difficult to get to the 10% level, so you have to wait for the flop and take it from there. In other words, with deep stacks you can't prevent pocket pairs from correctly seeing the flop.

[Zag]

Remember that one of the assumptions in the original post was that you were sure you'd be able to put the AA all in before the river, if you wanted to.

This just means that you must be careful NOT to give those implied odds to your opponents. You can do this either be always raising more than 10% of your stack, or by being prepared to dump your AA if they don't improve and someone else shows strength.

[Lurker]

[ QUOTE ]
If the stacks are deep it may be very difficult to get to the 10% level, so you have to wait for the flop and take it from there. In other words, with deep stacks you can't prevent pocket pairs from correctly seeing the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, you can. Just don't pay them off when they hit--if they get less than a 9-1 payoff or so, then you've prevented them from playing correctly.