PLO8- getting halved

[leon]

Microlimit home game, 4 handed, with friends. I have the most pot limit experience of the rest combined, the rest having only played in the home game. I have little experience with O8 but again, more than anyone else. Am familiar with the concept of getting quartered, halved, etc, but have explained this to the others. I don't know their true level of understanding of the concept but I'll assume it's full.

The hand- .25/.25 blinds. I'm in the BB, utg limps, fairly aggressive button makes it 1$, sb calls. I call with 8653 double suited, knowing utg will call. Feel free to comment on this call but it's not the main thrust of the hand- I know this is a pretty ugly hand but the game has generally been one where big bets can get paid off, so implied odds early on are quite good. Family pot, 4$ to the flop.

Flop- 64Q two of my suit. Check button who bets pot. SB calls??, I call, utg calls. Hmm. Still family, 20 in the pot.

Turn- a beautiful offsuit 2, I have the nut high and a crappy low. I lead out the pot to charge draws and protect my hand. UTG calls???, button reraises to 60$. He meant to make it 80$ (a pot sized raise) but didn't realize he could make it 20 + 60 for 80. SB reluctantly folds. Hmm, there was probably the nut high flush draw.

What to do? UTG is 20some$ away from being all in and I know he'll call. I have the nut high, basically no low, and I could be getting halved here if button also has the nut high. Plus there are always the redraws.

I called in the heat of the moment, but clearly what I should have done is consider how much I regain from the pot if in fact I am getting halved, and calculate if I lose more by calling or mucking. Later calculations show I lose less by cutting my losses and mucking now.

River changes nothing. I check and call, quite sure I am getting halved. I slowed down on the turn already by just calling the reraise. Button does show me the nut nut and I get halved.

Here's the question- I have solid evidence that I'm going to chop the high, but obviously I'm not sure. At what point do you all cut your losses, or do you pay off here? The button could be doing this with the nut high draw and the nut low as well, so clearly I got put to a decision. Throw in the fact that we are 4 handed, and thus less likely that all the nuts are always out there, and the fact that button was an aggressive player, and it's not super clear cut in my mind.

Thanks

Leon

[nicky g]

If I'm heads-up facing a pot sized bet and another likely pot-sized bet on the next round, and I know I am only getting half the pot at most, I think it's a good time to fold. 4-handed means it's unlikely the other guy has the high with you but he's probably got a shot at it at least, and he must either be tying for high or beating you for low and freerolling for high, or both. If you call here planning to call a pot bet on the river, you're laying 8-1 that your half of the pot will stand up. You have to fold.

[Nottom]

I don't know a lot about O8 but I know enough to toss 8653 without a second thought.

Also this is getting quartered not halved, halved is a normal split where one guy goes high and another goes low, or in some oddball double nut-nut hand.

Also note that your crappy low, is still the second nut in this case since you are only behind A3, if you are playing guys who are generally a bit over aggressive and play a bit too loose, I think I would have to call him down as well.

[Acesover8s]

Fold preflop. Fold the Flop. Fold the Turn.

In PLO/8 if you have a strong hi only holding (meaning the current nuts, but in danger on the next card), and you know a better low is out there, AND will call your bet, it is time to check. This game is about locking up one side of the pot and freerolling for the other.

[nicky g]

"Also note that your crappy low, is still the second nut in this case since you are only behind A3"

I missed that, and was working under the assumption that you were definitely losing the low. Hmmm. In that case I feel it's extremely, extremely unlikely you are being beaten both-ways - but you are sti [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]ll likely being freerolled on which isn't a great situation given that you'll have to call 3 times the bet on the next tround. 4-handed here, I think there is a good case for calling down here if you think he can play like this without having the nut low. But I still don't like calling two pot sized bets if there's a good chance I'm getting half at best.

But then I don't know much about o8, and play it at my tight-weakest worse. Crockpot, when are you going to put a guide to online PLO8 up? [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

[crockpot]

[ QUOTE ]
I call with 8653 double suited, knowing utg will call. Feel free to comment on this call but it's not the main thrust of the hand

[/ QUOTE ]

yes, it is. you don't call with this crap hand, and you never get into this mess in the first place. you got an awesome board for your hand and it was still correct to fold it. what does that tell you?

by the way, you should also fold on the flop. you have six outs to half the pot, and even then you can get redrawn. as for your flush draw, play flush draws like that and you will get killed in this game.

[leon]

Thanks to everyone for their input thus far.

First, I know 8653 is a crap hand. I played it b/c, in order, a) it's a home game and everyone is a friend, and it's microstakes, b) it's 4 handed, and c) hands get paid off as I stated. I figured I could take some of the worst of it preflop as long as the flop fit me. The issue here is that the flop didn't "fit" me per se. But to me this is not the main thrust of the hand b/c I wanted to know the cutoff when you suspect you might be getting quartered, halved, what have you. Bad preflop call or not, the situation is now what it is. If you want, imagine I got a free play in the big blind and then all post flop action was the same. The question is, now that I'm in this situation what to do?

Secondly I wasn't counting my flush draw as outs- in fact I didn't want to make my flush. But it does help that I have two of the suit myself to make the flush less likely. That was the only reason I mentioned it- didn't mean to imply that I thought, "hey, I had a flush draw too".

Third, is 8653 really THAT shitty in a 4 handed O8 game with relative newbies (including myself)? 4 handed you certainly can't wait for AA23 double suited all day. I am also very experienced with other forms of poker, just working on my O8 game.

4th, I thought quartered referred to when you lose a quarter of whatever you put in- ie, you and PLayer B both have the nut low, C has the nut high, for every dollar you put in you get back 75 cents. Halved, I thought, was what happened to me- for every dollar I put in I got back 50 cents. Halved certainly cannot mean a normal high/low split as one poster suggested. Does anyone have a definitive answer on this?

Finally, it seems everyone feels I should have folded when it became apparent I might be getting freerolled and/or halved. I agree in retrospect, but again, given that it was 4 handed, is this such an easy laydown before I realize this? I can't only play nut flops, WITH a redraw to the nuts, AND the nut low in a 4 handed situation, can I? In a 10 handed, grind it out situation certainly, but that seems too tight here.

Leon

[bugstud]

against from flopping quads, there is very little that 8653 will make that you can get "paid" on. at least have an A in your hand, even 4 handed.

[Nottom]

[ QUOTE ]
4th, I thought quartered referred to when you lose a quarter of whatever you put in- ie, you and PLayer B both have the nut low, C has the nut high, for every dollar you put in you get back 75 cents. Halved, I thought, was what happened to me- for every dollar I put in I got back 50 cents. Halved certainly cannot mean a normal high/low split as one poster suggested. Does anyone have a definitive answer on this?


[/ QUOTE ]

You are quartered when you get back $.25 on every dollar you put in, and are halved when you get back $.50. You are forgetting that you are also getting $.25 or $.50 on all the other players dollars as well, so being halved is a breakeven proposition at worst but getting quartered with less than 4 in the pot is bad juju.

And 8653 really is a bad hand in Hi-Lo split. Middle ranked cards are bad in this game because they generally can't win a low, and if they make a high they can't scoop because there is a possible low on the board. Therefore, they have no legitamate scoop potential which is what this game is all about.

[crockpot]

if i somehow decided to play 8653 that far, i would have played the turn and river the same as you, but i certainly wouldn't have liked it. it took me awhile to realize that when i was annoyed to put my money in the pot, it virtually always meant i shouldn't have been there in the first place. just remember that you are going to have a ton of trouble scooping a pot when you play this kind of hand, and it is a lot easier to lose money with it than win some.

and microstakes it may be, but the pot still got to nearly $200. that's a lot to invest with a hand like this.