Bad call or bad flop?

is this just a situation where you either triple-up or go out?


or shouldn't you tangle with the two chip-leaders even when you have number 2?!


PokerStars Game #10940453: Tournament #1874, Hold'em Pot Limit - Level VIII

(400/800) - 2002/05/13 - 12:51:25 (EST)

Table '1874 6' Seat #3 is the button

Seat 1: $-SUJ-$ (3395 in chips)

Seat 2: dipstick (4260 in chips) is sitting out

Seat 3: vikingarna (17037 in chips)

Seat 6: Poker Porse (8931 in chips)

Seat 7: Mike Haven (4310 in chips)

Seat 8: EZEZEZ (8662 in chips)

Seat 9: mystiko (4248 in chips)

Poker Porse: posts small blind 400

Mike Haven: posts big blind 800

*** HOLE CARDS ***

Dealt to Mike Haven [Kd Kh]

EZEZEZ: folds

mystiko: folds

$-SUJ-$: folds

dipstick: folds

vikingarna: raises 1600 to 2400

Poker Porse: raises 5600 to 8000

Mike Haven: calls 3510 and is all-in

vikingarna: calls 5600

*** FLOP *** [Qh Ad Qs]

Poker Porse: bets 931 and is all-in

vikingarna: calls 931

*** TURN *** [Qh Ad Qs] [3s]

*** RIVER *** [Qh Ad Qs 3s] [9s]

*** SHOW DOWN ***

Poker Porse: shows [Ks Qc] (three of a kind, Queens)

vikingarna: shows [Th Td] (two pair, Queens and Tens)

Poker Porse collected 9242 from side pot

Mike Haven: shows [Kd Kh] (two pair, Kings and Queens)

Poker Porse collected 12930 from main pot

dipstick has returned

*** SUMMARY ***

Total pot 22172 Main pot 12930. Side pot 9242. | Rake 0

Board [Qh Ad Qs 3s 9s]

Seat 1: $-SUJ-$ folded before Flop (didn't bet)

Seat 2: dipstick folded before Flop (didn't bet)

Seat 3: vikingarna (button) showed [Th Td] and lost with two pair, Queens and

Tens

Seat 6: Poker Porse (small blind) showed [Ks Qc] and won (22172) with three of a

kind, Queens

Seat 7: Mike Haven (big blind) showed [Kd Kh] and lost with two pair, Kings and

Queens

Seat 8: EZEZEZ folded before Flop (didn't bet)

Seat 9: mystiko folded before Flop (didn't bet)

It's maybe just me, but personally I would prefer it if you described the hand in question, including those factors which you think are relevant, rather than just pasting the hand history. You might find it helps you to think about the correct action yourself.


For example we have no idea how many tables are left at this point, and so how close you are to the money.


As for the hand, you have nowhere near enough chips to even think about passing KK pre-flop. Normally in these competitions you want to get hold of around 15K chips to be competitive in the final. This is as good a chance to get those chips as you'll get.


The saying about not tangling with chip leaders only applies when you yourself are one of the big stacks. Even then every situation is different, and you have to think on your feet.


Andy.

I agree with Andy that condensed versions of hands are not only easier to follow but can also convey what the poster is thinking throughout the hand. Other information like what you think these opponents are capable of doing, how many will cash and how many tables left can be very relevent in the decision making process.


Typically, your call is an easy one with KK being somewhat short stacked especially against a possible steal and resteal from the chip leaders. I would not put either on AA (most likely an ace or a med pair). You actually should have won this hand heads up with the chip leader (CL) for the SB (Poker Porse) made a very gutsy (IMO) re-raise (comitting his entire stack with KQo). If the SB would have folded btf (as maybe he should have IMO) you go all-in.


However, the SB play is not as horrible as I thought it was at first. Apparently Poker Porse put the CL on a steal from LP and didn't expect you to call therefore expecting to force the CL to muck as well. It's a gutsy move that may have worked hadn't you called.


I'm sure Poker Porse didn't feel too good when you called and the CL called as well.


Tough break for you that the SB was the over- aggressive player that he is and got very lucky otf.


Just my thoughts...


KC50

There are very few situations I would lay down your hand. I would have to be 3 out of the money (or closer) in a SUPER SAT. You have no chips!!!


As John Bonnetti said (paraphrased): "What do you mean dont get involved with the big stacks? I always get involved with the big stacks,that is where the chips are!!!"

sorry - i am used to reading hand histories, and i didn't think there was a lot more in this situation than showed in the header, positions, and cards - thanks for the suggestion for the future


i had fairly recently been moved to the table but i thought pokerporse was aggressive, as kc50 assumed, so i wasn't too concerned about his raise (as far as AA was concerned) - and the chip leader struck me as fairly non-aggressive from the few hands i had seen


there were 21 players left at this stage - i think i was 9th in chips


i asked really to see if you thought this was a time when i should have let pokerporse be knocked out (if that was to be the result) and sit out the hand - or if you just have to go with KK


as soon as i saw the Axx i thought i was dead - the QQQ "surprised" me

Does "paraphrased" mean you had to take some words out :-).


And yes, I can't imagine dropping KK here in a real game never mind on the Internet.


Andy.

Game #186751558 (Level V, Game #1) - 200/400 Texas Hold'em - 2002/05/14-16:23:41(CST)

Seat 1: Mike_Haven (905 in chips)

Seat 3: riverloser (380 in chips)

Seat 4: CrazyH (630 in chips)

Seat 5: Celly (1,047.50 in chips)

Seat 6: mikeyboy2000 (1,687.50 in chips)

Seat 7: Dogon (2,270 in chips)

Seat 9: Chode (1,060 in chips)

Seat 10: Indifferent (20 in chips)

CrazyH : Post Small Blind (100)

Celly : Post Big Blind (200)

Dealing...

Dealt to Mike_Haven [ Kh ]

Dealt to Mike_Haven [ Kc ]

mikeyboy2000: Fold

Dogon : Fold

Chode : Fold

Indifferent: Fold

Mike_Haven: Raise (400)

riverloser: Fold

CrazyH : Fold

Celly : Call (200)

*** FLOP *** : [ Ah 2d 2c ]

Celly : Check

Mike_Haven: Check

*** TURN *** : [ Ah 2d 2c ] [ 9h ]

Celly : Bet (400)

Mike_Haven: Raise All-in (505)

Celly : Call (105)

*** RIVER *** : [ Ah 2d 2c 9h ] [ Qs ]

*** SUMMARY ***

Pot: 1,910 | Board: [ Ah 2d 2c 9h Qs ]

Mike_Haven lost 905 (showed hand) [ Kh Kc ] (two pair, kings and twos)

Celly bet 905, collected 1,910, net +1,005 (showed hand) [ As 3s ] (two pair,

aces and twos)

1st Hand: If you don't overcall allin here with ppK (to triple your stack) given your stack size and tournament stage, what do you call with??!! The call is proper..U just got unlucky...


2nd hand: Given you're in Cutoff, why let the button, SB or BB in so cheaply. Your 2x BB raise can easily be interpreted as a steal by either blind, and you are virtually (IMO) asking them to call you with Ax or come over the top with a stronger hand. ppK in that position calls for a stronger raise, at least 3.5 x BB. Given your stack size, I say push it allin here.....Make THEM make the tough call.

thanks very much for your comments, Myrtle


i'm sorry: i didn't mention the second game was limit


i posted it as i thought it was ironic that i lost two tourns, one after the other, with KK, both being best hand going in


i'm worried i'm going to have difficulty playing it again in similar circs!!

uhhh........yup...oops, sorry I missed that.


That being said, then you're just stuck with another mindless Ace-rag caller "Duh, I may hit an Ace and wreck that guys big pair" mentality.


Makes one want to vomit and trash the monitor at the same time, eh?


As far as being worried about playing it correctly again? When you get to that stage (and most of us have been there!), ya just gotta stick with it and do the right thing. You can't worry about the boogey-man being in every closet, or else your game goes straight to hell....


If we were to examine this phenomenon in more detail, I think we'd find that it is an ever increasing occurance in online play. There has been discussion about the "schooling" effect in poker. In my past few years of online play, I use another term to describe it: "CFF" or, the Collective Fish Factor. A few of my freinds & I have discussed this in medium detail, and it seems to me there is a basis for doing further study in an attempt to more accurately describe and quantify the dynamics of what's actually going on.


There may be a good book in this one!


Stay the course & good luck,