Don't know when to fold?

akira · #1 08-02-2004, 11:13 AM

I played in 7 SnG tournaments this weekened (PS $5+$.50) with 5 out of the money finishes, and 2 first place. It seems like I do well once I make it to the top 3 or 4, but I have a hard time playing with a full table, because I seem to get in the situation where I push or call an all in with a decent hand but not always the best. Here are some hands where this happened, I wanted to see whether my play was ok, or if I should have folded due to some warning flags/dangerous board situations.

Hand 1:
I had bottom two pair on the flop, and raised it. Got reraised twice, but decided to call. Turn gave me a flush draw as well, so I pushed. Given that there was a straight + higher 2 pair possibilities, should I have played this differently?

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t50 (8 handed) converter

Button (t625)
Hero (t1000)
BB (t2505)
UTG (t1100)
UTG+1 (t585)
MP1 (t3915)
MP2 (t1500)
CO (t2270)

Preflop: Hero is SB with 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
UTG calls t50, UTG+1 calls t50, MP1 folds, MP2 calls t50, CO folds, Button folds, Hero completes, BB checks.

Flop: (t250) Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (5 players)
Hero bets t250, BB folds, UTG raises to t500, UTG+1 raises to t535, MP2 folds, Hero calls t285, UTG calls t35.

Turn: (t1855) K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (3 players)
Hero bets t415 (All-In), UTG calls t415.

River: (t2685) T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (3 players, 1 all-in)

Final Pot: t2685
Main Pot: t2685 (t2685), between Hero and UTG.

Hand 2:
Some straight possibilities on the board by the turn, also 2 possible flush draws. I pushed on the turn hoping that someone was on a flush draw as opposed to a made straight. Was this a good push?

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t20 (9 handed) converter

UTG+1 (t1600)
MP1 (t2030)
MP2 (t1140)
MP3 (t1470)
Hero (t1470)
Button (t1370)
SB (t1460)
BB (t1460)
UTG (t1500)

Preflop: Hero is CO with 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
UTG folds, UTG+1 folds, MP1 raises to t40, MP2 calls t40, MP3 folds, Hero calls t40, Button folds, SB folds, BB folds.

Flop: (t150) 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3 players)
MP1 bets t100, MP2 calls t100, Hero raises to t450, MP1 calls t350, MP2 folds.

Turn: (t1150) 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
MP1 checks, Hero bets t980 (All-In), MP1 calls t980.

River: (t3110) J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players, 1 all-in)

Final Pot: t3110
Main Pot: t3110 (t3110), between MP1 and Hero.

Hand 3:
I was below the 10XBB limit, so I figured this was a pretty standard push. However, given that it was on the bubble and BB is large stack, should I have not pushed here?

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t150 (4 handed) converter

Button (t7023)
Hero (t1090)
BB (t4275)
UTG (t1112)

Preflop: Hero is SB with T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
UTG folds, Button folds, Hero raises to t1015, BB calls t865.

Flop: (t2030) 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets t75 (All-In), BB calls t75.

Turn: (t2180) 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players, 1 all-in)

River: (t2180) 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players, 1 all-in)

Final Pot: t2180
Main Pot: t2180 (t2180), between Hero and BB.

Results to follow..

Thanks!

parappa · #2 08-02-2004, 11:34 AM

disclaimer: I'm a middle-of-the-road 5+1 player.

Hand 1: I fold to a raise and rereaise with bottom 2. This one I think you could've gotten away from in some circumstances, but it's not that easy because you end up telling yourself that they'll call/raise with anything. One of them probably has a hand that beats you, though, and I think you have to fold.

Hand 2: If he had TJ, 99, or QQ, I'm probably going to end up losing all my chips here before I realize that I'm beat, whether I push on the flop, or when the flush draw comes on the turn. If he's on a flush draw, I'm still going to end up losing all my chips if it comes in. Even if he goes all in on the flop here, I'm calling. So this one is just a hand you played right and (maybe) lost imo.

Hand 3: I'd also push here.

[Edit: just realized that I assumed you lost all 3 hands and inserted a (maybe).]

Eder · #3 08-02-2004, 12:12 PM

#1. I fold preflop
#2. Blinds = 20 I worried about the flush/st8...no need busting out here...I would call him down unless he pushed...hard to drop trips but hard to believe he is betting on nothing...still early in tourney so why gamble?
#3.I would push as well here...nothing else you can do

Cleveland Guy · #4 08-02-2004, 01:01 PM

[ QUOTE ]
#1. I fold preflop

[/ QUOTE ]

folded J8 Suited from the small blind with no raises? Pot odds seem good to complete with.

But once your bottom 2 is re-raised, gotta think the only thing your beating is AQ.

Eder · #5 08-02-2004, 05:05 PM

i hate risking chips this...too often hands like this flop a pair and start costing to play...3 way HU I like it though...jmo

BradleyT · #6 08-02-2004, 01:46 PM

#1 after a raise and a re-raise I probably let it go. Somewhat hard to do as you have quite a bit of hand against 3 limpers though.

#2 if you lost it was just a bad beat. You played it well.

#3 standard play.

You didn't play any hands badly you just had some bad luck.

akira · #7 08-02-2004, 04:53 PM

Here are the results:

Hand 1:
UTG turns over K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], UTG+1 has 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]. UTG hit the top 2 pair on the turn. I wasn't sure what to do on the flop after getting reraised. I was worried UTG had top 2 pair w/ QJ on the flop. I was also considering reraising all in but didn't think that would fold UTG after having reraised me. Maybe I should have folded, although it wouldn't leave me w/ too many chips.

Given my play on the flop, was my push on the turn a bad move? (I got a flush draw w/ the K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], although the King was not the best card to get).

Hand 2:
UTG turns over K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], so he called an all in for an inside straight draw! After looking at the responses I think my play was ok on this hand. Another option would have been to call it down as opposed to push, but I was worried about giving the flush draws a free card.

Hand 3:
Pretty standard, BB called w/ K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], and happened to catch his kind on the flop.

Thanks for the replies!

patrick dicaprio · #8 08-02-2004, 04:00 PM

1. on the first hand you have to be crazy to fold this hand for 1/2 a bet preflop. on the flop i would checkraise all in here. you would be surprised (or maybe you wouldnt) how often you will get called by top pair. plus if you checked and then UTG bet 500 and was raised by UTG+1 then you know someone has a hand. so my plan generally is to check the flop and if one guy bets if it is a big bet i will raise all in. in this situation tho if you had checked you should probably still reraise all in even though there are two adversaries. if i lost all my chips then so be it, but i dont want a non-made draw getting a cheap card.

2. why minraise here? either you should make a good raise preflop, or better yet just call. with low blinds there is little folding equity that would warrant a big raise so just call and hope to flop a set. other than that i cant quibble with how you played it, it looks good to me.

3. did you make a mistake when putting in your bet preflop? i presume that you wanted to push. i would have done the same.

Pat

akira · #9 08-02-2004, 04:28 PM

[ QUOTE ]
1. on the first hand you have to be crazy to fold this hand for 1/2 a bet preflop. on the flop i would checkraise all in here. you would be surprised (or maybe you wouldnt) how often you will get called by top pair. plus if you checked and then UTG bet 500 and was raised by UTG+1 then you know someone has a hand. so my plan generally is to check the flop and if one guy bets if it is a big bet i will raise all in. in this situation tho if you had checked you should probably still reraise all in even though there are two adversaries. if i lost all my chips then so be it, but i dont want a non-made draw getting a cheap card.

2. why minraise here? either you should make a good raise preflop, or better yet just call. with low blinds there is little folding equity that would warrant a big raise so just call and hope to flop a set. other than that i cant quibble with how you played it, it looks good to me.

3. did you make a mistake when putting in your bet preflop? i presume that you wanted to push. i would have done the same.

Pat

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah pf I didn't really consider folding that hand just for 1/2 bet. After the flop, reraising all in was another option I considered just in in case someone was betting w/ top pair. However, I wasn't sure MP1 would fold after reraising me. On the turn I pushed b/c I also got a flush draw and also felt pot committed at this point. Although seems like everyone else thought I should have folded this one after the raise and reraise on the flop though..

On hand 2, it was actually MP1 that mini raised, I just called his raise pf. I think my play was ok here after looking at all the responses.

On hand 3 I meant to push it. I thought it was a standard move too, but I posted it to see if anyone disagreed just because it was on the bubble and BB was big stack - guess not.

Sifmole · #10 08-02-2004, 05:03 PM

All I can say is, "Wow, I must really suck much more than I thought I did."; why? well, these are my thoughts on play.

#1: I only complete this if the table has a habit of small bets and checking down after the flop. After that flop I bet pot pretty much like you did; then think and fold after the raise and re-raise. Why? even with maniacs one of them probably does have you beat -- and many too many ways this two pair is going down to a draw.

#2: I see a one blind raise -- I figure Ax or Kx suited, with the x being something like J,T, or 9; unless the player has been tricky in the past, then I look at a pocket pair less than K but more than 9. In general... So, I raise to 160. With that flop I probably make a similar bet -- then get worried. The turn... well I don't think he was calling to a diamon draw -- and that 6 doesn't help. I push.

#3 I just make sure that slider is jammed all the way to the right and hit bet.

So -- I'm insterested in any critique too