Ok, I need professional help with this hand... can't figure it out...

[eugeneel]

This is an argument me and another player I know who plays very high stakes. We were having on this chat over AIM.
The game mentioned is online at pokerroom 25-50 5 handed the people who had the AA and JJ in this hands were both good players.

PLEASE LET ME KNOW IF MY CALL WAS A GOOD ONE OR A BAD ONE.

Eugeneel: had some guy hit one outer on river
East remix: yeah that was me
Eugeneel: for 900 pot
East remix: the set over set right
Eugeneel: no
Eugeneel: flop was
Eugeneel: 232 2 diamonds
East remix: sorry
Eugeneel: and JJ won
Eugeneel: with J on river
East remix: so thats a 2 outer
Eugeneel: I had 10j
Eugeneel: of diamonds
East remix: ah
East remix: so you were only ahead on the turn
East remix: how is that a bad beat
Eugeneel: true
Eugeneel: 1 outer for capped pot all the way besider river
East remix: that mustve been really tough to get over
Eugeneel: is bad beat for me
East remix: but you were only best on the turn
East remix: plus what are you doing in the hand with j10 if its capped preflop
Eugeneel: yeah I played wel though
Eugeneel: got trapped
East remix: how

.... Some arguing about odds, then he tell me that J10 sucks in 4 way pot and I tell him a lot of worse hands hands are usually in that pot. He asks me "like what"

East remix: normally the morons with J10 make it 4way
Eugeneel: hands that are much worse off then my 10 J suioted
East remix: no
Eugeneel: yeah
East remix: like what?
East remix: 8-9?
Eugeneel: AK-Aq, 77-1010
East remix: hahah AK????
Eugeneel: eh
Eugeneel: AJ
Eugeneel: mistyping
East remix: 10-10 is worse off than J-10?
East remix: you have to catch gin on the flop
Eugeneel: against strong players?
Eugeneel: 10 10 worse
Eugeneel: I think
East remix: you get trapped too easily with J-10
East remix: flop comes J23
East remix: you cant let go
Eugeneel: nah
Eugeneel: u can
East remix: well then you'er playing for a striaght or a flush
East remix: so you migh as well have 2-3
Eugeneel: 23 makes less straights
East remix: ok 5-6
Eugeneel: yeah
East remix: if you want to put 4 bets in on a suited connector
East remix: which is what J-10 is
East remix: you're welcome in my game anytime
Eugeneel: heh
Eugeneel: I got trapped
East remix: haha i dont see how
Eugeneel: u already know that
East remix: i think you made a dumb call and hoped to get lucky
Eugeneel: ok stupid conversation
East remix: then you got lucky but someone got luckier
Eugeneel: I know I got trapped
East remix: BIRNBAUMNMT TAPPED YOU OUT
East remix: yeah well preflop checkraises are a good way to trap
Eugeneel: I forget what did it
Eugeneel: someone must of donne it with AA then
East remix: yeah
Eugeneel: that seems more logical
Eugeneel: So AA limps 1st
East remix: very logical
Eugeneel: I call
East remix: how exactly do you checkraise preflop?
Eugeneel: JJ raises
Eugeneel: AA reraises
East remix: so you dump
East remix: limpings bad anyway
East remix: i never limp
Eugeneel: I call (maybe loose)
Eugeneel: and jj caps
East remix: yeah each call was bad, the 2nd obviously worse
Eugeneel: the thing is
Eugeneel: actually
Eugeneel: 2nd call was good
Eugeneel: so [censored] off
East remix: hahah no way!
Eugeneel: cause
East remix: calling 2 bets cold
Eugeneel: I have everyone figured
Eugeneel: I KNOW that checkraiser has aces
East remix: ok, well you dont know
Eugeneel: maybe kk
East remix: but its likely he has a big pair
East remix: yes
East remix: so pat yourself on the back, you got away cheap
Eugeneel: so it is so easy to play it postflop
East remix: and fold
East remix: apparently not
Eugeneel: well
East remix: i mean, the value isnt there
Eugeneel: not unless u hit good flop
East remix: this is limit
Eugeneel: and dream turn
East remix: you have no implied odds
Eugeneel: yeah I do
East remix: do you know how hard it is for J10 to beat AA
Eugeneel: cause
East remix: your odds are nowhere near what you're putting in the call
Eugeneel: I kniow what everyone has
East remix: not to mention the other guys in the pot can beat you
East remix: hahahah how do you nkow what the raiser has?
Eugeneel: no
Eugeneel: heh
East remix: you cant assume he has JJ
Eugeneel: Aces is enough
Eugeneel: to know
East remix: plus there's a mystery 4th guy
East remix: right, to drop the hand
East remix: you're up against AA which kills you
East remix: plus 2 unknown hands that you have beat
East remix: have to beat
East remix: in order to win the pot
East remix: J10 is a big big loser there
Eugeneel: dude A2 had J 10 beat
Eugeneel: does it mean that...
East remix: not really
Eugeneel: A2 is better here?
East remix: its not showdown poker
East remix: no
Eugeneel: there we go
East remix: but AA
East remix: kills you
Eugeneel: I had JJ beat in this hand
East remix: only on the turn
Eugeneel: cause we both facing AA
Eugeneel: no the whole way
East remix: uh no
Eugeneel: odds are
Eugeneel: I will winn much mopre often than the JJ
East remix: oh i see what youre saying
Eugeneel: against AA
Eugeneel: than he
Eugeneel: will
East remix: right
East remix: but guess who's gonna win the most
East remix: AA
East remix: you're still losing money
East remix: plus you dont know he has JJ
East remix: his hand hurts yours a lot too
Eugeneel: yeah but 90% of the time
Eugeneel: I fold flop
Eugeneel: and most time I pay only 3 bets
Eugeneel: to see flop
East remix: right so you throw away 4 bets
East remix: only 3 bets?
Eugeneel: well
Eugeneel: AA made it 3 bets
East remix: so 10% of the time you play after the flop
East remix: how many of those pots will you win?
East remix: 1/3?
Eugeneel: and win HUGE pot
East remix: so 3.3%
East remix: given 3 bets each time, plus what you can lose after the flop
East remix: thats already 30 bets you lose the 90% of the time
Eugeneel: hey
East remix: youre not making 50 bets+ the times you win the hand
Eugeneel: I am gonna post this hand on 2+2
East remix: its a big loser
East remix: those people are morons
Eugeneel: mason will give me good advice
Eugeneel: they know odds
East remix: im intersted to see what they say
Eugeneel: it is an interesting hand
Eugeneel: cause I can see ur point
East remix: maybe
East remix: i think its clear cut


Is it a clear fold preflop?

(by the way, feel free to congratulate me on my biggest win ever last night at the gaming club, 25-50 3-7 handed over 3 hr period, won 4.1k!)

Really looking forward to reading these replies,

-Eugene

[tpir90036]

that made my head hurt and it's way to late/early for me to try to understand what a preflop check-raise is.

if the question is calling 2 more cold after limping with JTs and a limp-reraise occurring...i think the answer is bail out.

good night.

[glen]

Congratulations on your biggest win ever at Gaming Club - 4.1k - at 25-50 3-7 handed over a 3 hour period! You da man!

[eugeneel]

that's kind of the question but you gotta realize that I knew that about 95% chance that the raiser had AA and 5% kk. Is it worth a call in that situation?

[Eric P]

in a 5 handed game you didn't open-raise with JTs? or did you limp behind someone. JTs is like a 4-1 dog against aces, hoever he makes a good point that you have other hands to beat. his 10% is wrong becuase you will flop nut straight draws also, and occasionally you will flop 15 outers. On the hands where you flop the nuts you will get a lot of action, and lose 1/4 of the time because AA might have one of your suit if the fourth diamond comes. If these guys play bad post-flop (can't fold aces to an 9TJs flop when it's 2 bets to him) then you can get away with this i'm pretty sure. it's probably marginal either way, but if you hit it, people will get mad at you and think you are "just getting lucky" which might be worth the value you are missing... sort of streching but who knows. I'd probably do it do once i'm in and know i'm in for a huge pot.

[gavrilo]

Just a thought, instead of trying to sort through this Instant Message, just type out the hand?
Reading that gave me a headache and I'm still unclear as to what the hand was.

[johnd]

you should just type out the hand in story form. I had a hard time reading it. And anyone thats starts out with saying 2 outer forgetting about the unseen 2's is suspect.
That said i dont like J10 vs JJ by its self much less with AA in the hand. but i am not even sure if i read the hand right.
Congrats on the big win

[James282]

Well a couple of things. The preflop call is not awful because you do have a lot of implied odds as well as easy ways to get away from your hand. Raw odds against these holdings leaves you at a little worse than a 5-1 dog, and I think that you can be safe in thinking that you can get this money back against aces when you hit. This play will increase your variance greatly, however, and as your friend pointed out, you can't be sure the guy has aces. He could have AK of diamonds, that would be fun. I believe this is a fold preflop because it is not QUITE as easy to play as you might think it is, and while you are a good player, flushes and straights get caught up to by full houses all the time.

Anyway, if it makes you feel any better about your bad beat, he actually had a 3 outer going into the river and not a 1 outer. The missing 2's would have filled him up as well, and the remaining 2 aces would have filled the other guy up! So there were actually 5 cards that woulda crunched you, if I understand the hand correctly. Congrats on your big win!
-James

[Schneids]

Eugeneel --

I think the PF call is fine if given that you are able to get away from the hand when you flop a pair. As you've already stated, you know you're against at least one overpair. And the other guy's willingness to cap, even against a limp re-raise, tells you you're probably against two overpairs. So, you can enter the hand knowing what you're against, and bail if you don't like the flop. No problems there. As you already know, you'll flop one of your draws about one in five. Given that you don't mind high variance, I think the implied odds here make it a no brain call PF, since when it's another two back to you PF, you are getting better than 4 to 1 immediate odds on that call, and even facing the possibility of it being capped (and turning your pot odds more speculative, at best), does not change the fact that your hand is very easy to play post flop and that you will very much get paid off by these overpairs when you hit a straight, two pair, flush, etc. You were just very unlucky the guy hit a one outer on the river -- so don't be results oriented and just know that this is inevitably one of the risks you face by entering the hand. Longterm, I think this play is fine and the times you hit a flush or straight will make up for the 2BBs you lose PF. Maybe someone else can go to twodimes and check the exact odds of your hand winning against a known AA, JJ, and then some random third hand (for generosity purposes we could call it AK).

Basically, I side with you.

[eugeneel]

I will summarize the hand here in a reader friendly way for those who find it hard to read my AIM.

I am holding J10d. Utg is a very strong player. bb and sb are unknown to me but I have a feeling he's not great. The game is 25-50 5 handed pokerroom.

UTG limps, I call in Utg+2 (I could have raised but it's my style to normally call with this hand), Button folds, Small blind raises, BB calls, UTG limp-raises (he is the kind of player that will only do this with AA, but I can't say that I am 100% sure he does not have KK. He would not limp-raise with any other hand including AKs, assume I know this for sure) I call 3 bets small blind caps it and everyone calls.

The main question is... Was it a correct call for me to call the limp-raises for 2 bets with 10Jd if I KNEW that there was about a 95% chance he had AA and about a 5% chance he has KK?


The rest of the hand went like this.
Flop was 2D3D2S, capped by the UTG and SB players with me in and the BB folding somewhere.

Turn was 5D same thing happens with me doing the capping.
Last card came Jh Utg checks, I bet, Sb raises, Utg folds, I call thinking he has AKd in worst possible case.

He shows pocket jacks and wins a huge pot. (I previously said he hits his one outer meaning that he needs a one outer to beat EVERYONE but he has 3 outs (J,2,2) to have me beat.