Omaha/8 - I like my draw, pump this pot on all streets?

jedi · #1 06-23-2004, 02:44 AM

Boy, I really like this draw on the flop. Should I be playing this any differently? What about the river bet? What's the chance that I'm getting quartered here? What's the general rule of thumb in situations like this? In Pot LImit, I'd have been screwed, but in limit?

Party Poker 2/4 Omaha/8 (8 handed)

Preflop: Jedi is BB with T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, 1 fold, MP2 calls, 2 folds, SB completes, Jedi checks,

Flop: (5 SB) J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (5 players)
SB checks, Jedi bets, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, MP2 calls, SB folds.

Turn: (4.50 BB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (4 players)
Jedi bets, UTG folds, UTG+1 folds, MP2 calls.

River: (6.50 BB) 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
Jedi bets, MP2 calls.

Final Pot: 8.50 BB
Main Pot: 8.50 BB, between Jedi and MP2. > High won by MP2 (4.25 BB). Split Low: Jedi (2.12 BB), MP2 (2.12 BB).

Results in white below: 
Jedi shows Tc Kd 2c Ac (Low: 8, 5, 4, 2, A | High: high card, ace).
MP2 shows Ah 9h 2s 8s (Low: 8, 5, 4, 2, A | High: one pair, eights).
Outcome: MP2 wins 6.37 BB. Jedi wins 2.12 BB.

Buzz · #2 06-23-2004, 05:28 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Boy, I really like this draw on the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

Jedi - Who can blame you! You have 13 outs for the nut straight scooper plus some back door possibilities. Odds against you making the straight are 32 to 13 or about 5 to 2 against. All you need are three callers to have favorable fresh money odds to jamb.

And it turns out you get three callers when you bet. Fine.

Turn: 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].

Not so good - but not as bad as the board pairing. Now you only have ten outs to the nut straight scooper, because of the diamond flush possibility. However you have picked up a 16 out nut low draw. At this point you have 26 cards that will get you at least part of the pot and 18 cards that don't help you. (44-26 = 18)

Eight handed you'll get quartered or sixthed roughly one third of the time with an ace-deuce low. Goes with the territory.

In addition, you're out of position and you don't _have anything yet. You're _purely on a draw. You have nothing to protect by betting.

Still, you have a nice draw, and you want to collect if you hit.

What to do.... What to do....

I think you mix it up. Sometimes you bet and sometimes you check and call.

You bet. Fine.

Now the river makes your low but you have _nothing for high. If low had not appeared on the river, you might have a chance to steal this pot - but with low enabled, I don't think trying to steal is realistic. Your opponent is going to call or maybe raise if you bet. But your opponent simply is _not going to fold here.

Thus you have nothing to gain by betting. I think you should check and call on the fourth betting round.

It probably would have worked out the same. If you checked, your opponent probably would have bet.

But note for future play that you lose here if you bet and get raised.

Buzz

pipes · #3 06-23-2004, 10:08 AM

I'd like to debate the bet on the river. Like Buzz said,
I probably would have check called the turn. But since you bet the turn, I think a bet on the river is not a bad idea.

My rationale:

What if he had something like AKT4? He have had the same draw as you but since you bet the whole way, you may have represented a made hand. A bet could steal the whole pot for you. That is a big upside. With one low card on the flop, it should be more likely that he had some high draw instead of a backdoor low. (Should be....)

Potential downside seems to be little due to this board. No flush is possible and not too many straights are possible. Seems less likely you will be raised. But if you check, he will most likely bet, so the cost will most likely be the same.

jedi · #4 06-23-2004, 11:48 AM

Incidentally, does anyone like MP's play here? He has the nut low draw here so I don't blame him for playing pre-flop, but what the hell was he doing calling me on the flop? He had nothing but the backdoor low and backdoor straight, right? This is one of these hands that I'm trying to avoid leaking on, and looking back on it, I would have dropped out on the flop if I had his hand (for better or worse)

pipes · #5 06-23-2004, 12:31 PM

MP's play was terrible, he is not a 2+2er...

He had a backdoor low with no protection and a gutshot to the bottom end of a straight.

tiltboy · #6 06-24-2004, 11:07 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Incidentally, does anyone like MP's play here? He has the nut low draw here so I don't blame him for playing pre-flop, but what the hell was he doing calling me on the flop? He had nothing but the backdoor low and backdoor straight, right? This is one of these hands that I'm trying to avoid leaking on, and looking back on it, I would have dropped out on the flop if I had his hand (for better or worse)

[/ QUOTE ]

Also backdoor nut flush and backdoor non-nut flush. Others obviously disagree but I don't think this is that horrible of a call for one bet. Once the 8 hit, MP becomes a big favorite over 'our hero'.

chaos · #7 06-24-2004, 11:37 AM

Getting quartered is slightly less likely because the low came runner runner. But it seems that in low limit games people will regularly chase runner-runner low draws with A2 or worse.

Check and call on the river. Once you reach the river in Omaha you have to decide if you gain anything by betting. What is the likelihood your opponent will call and you will beat him in both directions? (pretty small in this case with only AK for high). Will a bet get your opponent to fold? Do you mind getting raised?