Good move? 8-16 at the Bellagio

[swimfan]

At the Bellagio for my bachelor party. Unfortunately, I am usually the only one out of the group that plays poker. They all hang out at the Hard Rock pool. Wonder which is more +EV. Anyway on to the action...

I'm in BB with K [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]J [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]. I have been on the table for 5 hours at this point, my hands at showdown have been very strong. Open raise in early MP (hasn't been there long, not too much of a read), button (calling any piece of the board all the way down, has been getting crushed) cold calls. SB (solid player) and I complete.

Flop:
J [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 7 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 5 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

SB checks, I bet, MP raises, button cold calls, SB folds, I call. Quick note, I usually bet out on draws in early position, the past couple hands I've won have either a straight or flush where I've bet out.

Turn:
J [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 7 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 5 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 2 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

I check, MP bets, button calls, I call. (check-raise or fold here? At this point, I decided to CR the river if a non-heart, 9 or 4 falls on the river)

River:
J [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 7 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 5 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 2 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 9 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

I check, MP bets, button calls, I raise.

I don't know if I have the best hand, think this may be the only way I can get MP off a better hand. Haven't really bluffed check raised at table. Also advertised a good laydown earlier. I'm not worried about the button, since in prior hands button has called many hands cold showing down second pair or worse.

Results in white...

<font color="white">MP looks at me for 15-20 seconds and mucks, button thinks for awhile and calls. Tabled KJ while gazing towards MP; who flinched/grimaced. Button mucks.

[Haupt_234]

I would have popped the checkraise on the turn as I think you would have saved bets this way if your hand wasn't the best.

Also, I don't believe a river checkraise is going to get any decent player to fold a better hand (the weakest being AJ). A checkraise on that street should be for value; it is very tough to bluff here as the pot is very large and crying calls are warranted.

Haupt_234

[J.R.]

I don't understand the flop call, turn check-call on a blank. I think you made a risky move on the river, but it worked. I would feel sick if I played the hand like you and the button, whose flop coldcall screams draw, overcalled the river, but if your read of the button is right and the MP player will realize the pot is protected, I suppose he could/might lay down the same hand or AJ.

In general I would 3-bet the flop, occasionally I would stop and go on a turn blank, but calling the flop raise and then checking a blank on the turn don't seem consistent to me.

Just calling ther flop raise with a hand vulnerable to lots of possible flush, straight and over cards says I think I might be ahead but want to maximize my edge (if I have one) or get away cheaper on a scare card and turn action, yet when a blank turns you check-call? I might check-call a scarier card (occasionally check-raise if MP was playing fast/aggressive enough) but this turn card is pretty benign. I dunno, I have a spring cold so maybe my thinking is off but this is what comes to mind right now.

[swimfan]

In this situation I'm not sure that may be my typical line; I wanted to keep the button in. I had a strong feeling that he had a hand like a medium pp. He had been calling these down to the river in multi-way pots. Also, by keeping him in, puts MP out of position with the raise. I also don't like 3-betting the flop because MP may be ahead with a hand like AQh and I'd rather have position on a bettor in a multi-way pot where it's marginal if I'm ahead or behind. With my K [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], I felt I was going to the river, unless the turn is A-non-heart.

Generally, my line would be to check-raise the turn when a blank comes. However, I thought it would give my hand away. When I just called the flop, I felt like playing the hand like a flush draw. Had a heart popped on the river, I would have led out. When a non-heart came on the river, I check-raised for the following reasons:

Thought the button had a medium pp. Wanted to see if he raised MP had he made his set on the turn or river.

Generally, the river check-raise is for value, or perhaps if you spike a card. I thought there was a decent enough of a chance I was ahead here, and knew I was ahead of the button when he only called MP. I also thought I could get him off a slightly better hand (AJ) since there's another player to act and I felt I had a strong table image.

I'm not sure if this logic makes sense, or is convoluted. I talked to MP after getting up from the table, said he had KJs. He thought after my check raise I had a set or straight.

[sthief09]

I muck this preflop. After I muck, having seen the flop, I take my cards out of the muck and check-raise the flop. The river check-raise has 0 value IMO.

[chesspain]

[ QUOTE ]

River:
J [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 7 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 5 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 2 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 9 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

I check, MP bets, button calls, I raise.

I don't know if I have the best hand, think this may be the only way I can get MP off a better hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

What better hand is MP going to lay down--AJ or QQ? You were lucky he layed down the same exact hand as you. If anything, this checkraise is more of value bet if you assume: there is at least a 50% chance you are ahead of MP (although the percentage can be lower if he will call with a lot of worse hands), there is little chance of him three-betting, and you are positive the Button has a worse hand and will call the raise.

All-in-all, however, a rather thin, fancy move...

[swimfan]

If you're 100% sure that you're ahead of the button, and the button will call the CR, and 50% sure you're ahead of the MP, how is this 0 value?

Folding pre-flop in the BB is weak given button who pays off, IMO. By betting out, I can represent a flush to an overpair. Check-raising flop gives away my hand when I think I'm going to the river. Remember, don't always want to play your cards.

[swimfan]

i thought it was both; as you said i am 100% confident that I'm ahead of the button who will call, 50% sure I'm ahead of MP. I would say very sure he will not 3-bet. My hands at showdown have been very strong, and have been on a decent run. The hands I think he may lay down are AJ and worse, so you're right, it is a bit thin.