AKo in late middle stage of Stars 2+0 NL

[slogger]

Hero's stack around 7400 (just below avg) w/ 290 of 1600 players remaining. No huge stacks at the table, but at least 5 that cover our hero (w/ b/w 11,000 and 17,000). Table has been playing pretty tight and hero's has been stealing successfully 2-3 times for every two orbtis. Most other players' pre-flop raises are taking down the blinds uncontested, also.

Blinds are 100/200 (w/ 25 ante). Hero is in EP w/ AKo. UTG+1 limps (stack = 15,000; player has been fairly typical for this table), Hero raises to 1700. All fold to UTG+1, who calls.

Flop: [J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] T [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] J [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]]

UTG+1 checks. Your move?

Results and my thoughts to follow in later post, but in the meantime....

What if you had AA and found yourself at the very same point in the hand? Would you play it any differently?

[slogger]

On second thought, I guess this is not that interesting of a situation, but I really would like to know what some other players' default moves are here (assuming the facts in the post). All-in? Pot-size bet? Bet T2000? Check it through? And how do you plan to deal with a call? A raise?

Anyway, I posted this because I think I chose the worst possible option (an opinion that is only slightly colored by the result).

I pushed in, assuming that my opponent would fold any hand that didn't contain a J or a T, including small pocket pairs, and possibly QQ or KK (though less likely). [img]/images/graemlins/crazy.gif[/img] Of course, even though that thinking may have been correct, I failed to include in my thought process the fact that UTG+1 would almost certainly check a J and possibly a T (with the intention of calling or check-raising). Even worse, I failed to make a reasonable read of my opponent's hand - his actions to this point would be typical of MANY hands that have me drawing thin to dead (AJ, KJ, QJ, JT, perhaps even J9s or TT). [img]/images/graemlins/blush.gif[/img]

UTG+1 called showed me JTo for the flopped boat and I was drawing dead after a blank on the turn.

I think that I had only two good options: (1) Bet T2000 and go into check/fold mode if he doesn't muck it right there OR (2) check it through, see a free turn card, and proceed with extreme caution (fold to any bet if I don't improve; probably fold to any bet over T1000 even if I hit an A or K).

I think the best option is chalking the hand up to a relatively expensive failed steal attempt and checking it through with intention of checking or folding unimproved on the turn. Is this too weak tight? [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

[cferejohn]

That's a pretty hefty raise for a single limper. I wouldn't make it any more than 1000. Now the pot is so big (roughly 3400) that you are pretty much in all-in or fold mode.

Given that UTG limped UTG then called a big raise, I put him on KK or QQ (does that make sense for how he had been playing? He probably *should* have gone all in in that case but some players will wait to make sure there is no ace on the flop).

Assuming my read/wild-ass guess is correct, I think if you go all-in on this flop, he is calling for sure (since, he might think, there is no way someone would go all-in with a jack, which is of course an argument for doing just that, but I digress).

My move, trusting my read for the time being, is to either check and fold to any bet (the safe way) or act like I have a jack if possible (the Gus Hansen way, though he'd probably be doing it with 86o rather than AK [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]). Check here then see what he does on the turn. If he bets all-in, well, you've gotta lay it down. If he makes a smallish bet (say less than 2000), either raise all-in and hope you can push him off an overpair or fold. If he checks again on the turn, make a smallish bet (~1500 would be my amount), hoping to take it down, but ready to lay down to an all-in. If this bet is called and it is checked to you on the river, go all-in.

Note that if you don't think this opponent is capable of folding an overpair here (definitely well within the realm of possibility in a $2 multi-table), I think you should probably just check-fold.

If an A falls on either the turn or the river, I would feel pretty good about having the best hand and I would probably go all-in at the next opportunity.

[cferejohn]

Hmm. Well, looks like my check-fold advice was right, but for the wrong reason. You described the table as 'tight' and the UTG limper as 'typical for the table' and yet he called an 8.5xBB raise with JTo out of position (although in this situation, acting first allows you to 'stop-and-go' all-in on any flop, so acting first has some advantages as well here). It was still JTo though; you might want to reevaluate that read...

Personally, I have a lot of trouble getting away from hands where I made a preflop raise. I feel almost obligated to make a flop bet since it will take the pot often enough to make it worthwhile. Given these circumstances though, I *think* I would have made an exception.

[magithighs]

I'm still learning how to play NL multi-table tourneys and by far my biggest problem is betting other players hands for them.

Based on my late-middle tourney blow-outs (few times I'm the chip leader too!) on AK, here's my thoughts. I think you're taking the wrong path in thinking through this when you're playing with average players. They tend to give you fewer clues on their hand and call with more marginal hands that can and do turn into monsters on the flop.

In these tourneys, I think you need to think of what the player will CALL you with instead of how you can get them to fold. You're trying to get them to fold a better hand than yours. It just doesn't happen, especially heads up.

You mentioned that there was alot of blind stealing. If I'm holding AA or KK, limping UTG will be a nice way of catching a steal. So, I'm more inclined to think he may have AA or KK. Any size bet ain't chasing that.

Problem with AK is that you've already committed a significant part of your stack. Not following through seems crazy as you would be forced to play worse hands. A worse starting hand in a better spot may be better. Better to fight another day than to toss all your chips.

Also, he can't see your cards and YOU have position on him. So, he's forced to declare before you. He knows that you won't fold AA, KK, QQ. So, my thought is that he aint betting into you unless he's got you.

So, after that flop I think it's down to a checking strategy. The problem. What do you do when you spike the A or K at the turn. For that matter what would you do if it came up A J J. More than likely, it's going to require a decent read on the player.

Just my 2 cents.
Magithighs.

[OneStuckFish]

My move, but possibly not the correct one. I would have bet the flop (about 1200) and check/fold the turn if I didnt improve. I cant assume he didnt call with 9's, 8's, the same AK, or AQs. So I must bet the flop here. If hes holding KQs (not likely) he's all in most of the time after your flop bet, then its an easy fold. Anyone holding a JT, would have called the bet on the flop and not shut you out. Betting this flop lets you know immediatly if your beat. And you still have 5700 left to play [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

[ QUOTE ]
Hero's stack around 7400 (just below avg) w/ 290 of 1600 players remaining. No huge stacks at the table, but at least 5 that cover our hero (w/ b/w 11,000 and 17,000). Table has been playing pretty tight and hero's has been stealing successfully 2-3 times for every two orbtis. Most other players' pre-flop raises are taking down the blinds uncontested, also.

Blinds are 100/200 (w/ 25 ante). Hero is in EP w/ AKo. UTG+1 limps (stack = 15,000; player has been fairly typical for this table), Hero raises to 1700. All fold to UTG+1, who calls.

Flop: [J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] T [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] J [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]]

UTG+1 checks. Your move?

Results and my thoughts to follow in later post, but in the meantime....

What if you had AA and found yourself at the very same point in the hand? Would you play it any differently?

[/ QUOTE ]

[curmudgeon]

All-in if you want to shut out a big stack limper. [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]
Otherwise, a smaller raise if you want to see the flop, with the option to throw it away. [img]/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img]

That flop came out with some REAL LIVE cards!
Some players think JT is the Absolute best.
So try to see the turn & river as cheap as possible.

Don't over-analyze plays in low buyin tourneys <$50.
Internet poker is so chaotic.... [img]/images/graemlins/crazy.gif[/img]

[slogger]

Thanks for the input. I really didn't put him on KK or QQ, but I like your thinking on that. (NOTE: the Subject line of my second post corrects the blinds - they were 200-400, NOT 100-200). May even try that play at some point down the road if the situation seems right.

But I'm pretty sure he would have all-in pre-flop with KK or QQ, or AA for that matter.

As far as my read of the table, I should have been more specific. Tight was not the purest explanation. A limper or two was no infrequent, but sizeable raises generally kept such players in line (they would often limp-fold pre-flop). The limping increased over time after a very tight period (seems people were starting to get tired of waiting for a hand and hoping to maybe see a flop on the cheap w/ big connectors and the like). But still, fold, fold, raise, all fold was the most common pre-flop pattern.

When all was said and done, even though my "Spidey sense" went off after seeing the flop, I just refused to put him on a J.

[cferejohn]

Ah. With blinds at 200-400 (with a 50 ante if this was Poker*, yes?) raising a single limper to 1700 sounds just about right. A hand with a J in it seems much more plausible, but a high pocket pair seems less so (who I would think in this case almost certainly would have put you all-in preflop after your raise).

That said, I think I am usually doing the same thing you did. Given that you are heads up and there are two jacks on the board, he is usually not going to have a J. If I think this player is not capable of coming back over the top on a bluff, I might make a smaller (~1500) bet on the flop, hoping for a fold, and fold to a re-raise.