scary board = easy fold?

tpir90036 · #1 12-20-2003, 01:18 AM

one more....
2/4 party.

loose and semi-aggressive UTG limps and it's folded around to me on the button with K [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] T [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] and i limp. SB completes, and BB checks.

4 to the flop (4 SB): 9 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] K [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] J [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

SB checks, BB bets, UTG raises. i had seen him raise in this spot on a draw before but with the small pot and horrible odds i am getting i run for the hills screaming. would 3-betting here have made any sense since i could be in the lead? SB folds as well and BB calls.

turn: J [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
check, check.

river: Q [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
check, check.

BB shows 96o and UTG had a busted [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] flush draw.

my thinking was that if i was in the lead it was not by much and i wasn't really sure what cards i actually wanted to see on the turn and river. even knowing that UTG was probably on a draw, the BB betting out on this scary board made me think i could be way behind.

obviously if i would have known i was going to backdoor a straight flush i would have stuck around...no results-oriented thinking here though [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

any and all comments/harsh criticism appreciated.
-tpir

PocketRocketsBF · #2 12-20-2003, 01:34 AM

I 3 bet the flop and see what happens. You have top pair, a 2nd best backdoor flush draw, a gutshot straight draw and position. You even said yourself you'd seen this same guy go nuts on a draw hand before.

I probably would have raised PF as well to try and get heads up with position on the UTG player but it all depends on the players and the game.

tpir90036 · #3 12-20-2003, 01:45 AM

i usually raise suited broadway cards after a small number of limpers...you can't have many fewer limpers than one though. boooooo on me.

also, (i asked this in the other thread you responed to). do you think this is a close fold? i think one of my leaks might be making too many bad flop flods.

crockpot · #4 12-20-2003, 05:25 AM

fun turn and river.

i don't see a problem with three-betting a loose aggressive UTG here. remember, the chance you have the best hand is still big enough to be worth protecting, and you have a gutshot and backdoor flush draw on top of your pair.

tpir90036 · #5 12-20-2003, 05:30 AM

do you think making folds like this is horrible in the long run? was this at all close? i am in a vicious cycle where my bad streak makes me question my flop play...and i make bad folds and miss out on pots....so my streak continues... etc.

thanks!
-tpir

HajiShirazu · #6 12-20-2003, 05:35 AM

While in a lot of cases it might be okay to fold here, with your read on UTG, I think 3-betting is much better. Even if you were beat, it still wouldn't be that bad, since you have a decent chance to improve.
It always makes me sick when I fold an eventual straight flush. [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

crockpot · #7 12-20-2003, 05:45 AM

well, your decision here affects your standard deviation more than your win rate, but if your read on UTG is correct, then i don't think this play is close; you should reraise. if your read is kind of fudgy, it becomes a close decision.

jt1 · #8 12-20-2003, 06:34 AM

I would have 3 bet. Even if BB and UTG are extremely passive you should raise to get a free showdown. If they are not extremely passive then you are probably in the lead. Whenever I think I'm in the lead and I have position, I raise. This allows for either a free card or a free showdown. Usually I bet the turn, and if uncertain (and not playing against a calling station) I check the river.

Pre-flop is a judgement call. If the blinds don't fold then check, but if they do fold most of the time then raise.

ThingDo · #9 12-20-2003, 12:56 PM

I think the biggest mistake in the hand was preflop. I think this is an easy raise if you can narrow down the UTG's open limping standards from that position.

Bob T. · #10 12-20-2003, 01:38 PM

Maybe a good laydown on the flop given the pot size and action, but what were you doing preflop?

loose and semi-aggressive UTG limps and it's folded around to me on the button with K T and i limp.

If he is loose and semiaggressive, and he chose to limp, don't you think that you are way ahead of any hand he might hold. Wouldn't you like to play this headsup against his piece of cheese? I think you should raise preflop.

Actually, given that he is loose and semiaggressive, I don't like your fold that much, could he be raising, with K7 suited, or something like that. You could be ahead, or you could have Ts, Qs, and backdoor diamonds as outs. But folding immediately, is probably better than getting trapped, and folding on the turn.

You also have to be prepared from now on, to value bet the heck out of the BB, because he is going to call with not very much.