They just wont fold!!!

[Firetrap]

hey,

Ive just gone back down to playin 2/4 (skint)and im finding the klingyness of the players frustrating -- in the extreme.

OK, i play quite tight - 3 flushes, high 3 str8s etc you know the score. Im a very aggressive player, but generally my raises mean something - im sure that my opponents see this when i show my hands...but im often in hands with aces where they just will not fold!!! Obviously this results too many times in some KNOB catching that inside str8 or three clubs last three for the flush lol.

Now i dont do badly, i scape a profit - im not a call station with aces and generally know when to just let em go. But ive tried being inventive, using other aggressive players to check raise, but a lot of times they will not shift!! Obviously 7 callers decreases the value of big pairs, and its getting to the point where id rather just play my quality 3 flushes!!!

Im no expert but ive got a bit to my game, this seems too much like gambling to me!!!

Anyone got any general advice for play in these circumstances?

Cheers guys

[7stud]

[ QUOTE ]
OK, i play quite tight...

[/ QUOTE ]

Why?

It sounds like you are playing the exact some stategy you use for tight games as for loose games. You should maybe try to figure out the differences.

[MRBAA]

I've averaged about 3-4bb/hour at Paradise 2-4, and found I can do about the same at 5-10 live (meaning1-1.5bb/hour, since less hands live).

In loose games you should be able to call with a lot of lesser hands and it's worth doing so because the biggest mistake most opponents make is calling, not folding. So call with (33) 10. If you hit a 10 on fourth, bet the double bet and they may fold. If you hit a 3, you'll likely get called all the way by a big pair. Bottom line, at low limits most opponents are going to call more than they should. Take advantage -- and don't be afraid to check when you don't improve (often they'll check behind). The more passive of these players will often let you play hands exactly the way you want -- ie. betting when you have the best hand, drawing free when you don't. And you will have swings and get sucked out on. But I think the independent nature of hands and importance of remembering up cards gives a good player a much bigger advantage at low limit stud than at HE.

[Ron]

Hi, you have been reading books that teach how to play tight big money high limit games, I think. the 2-4 limit where you are getting 5-6-7 to one odds on your bet you should be playing almost everything, remmember on 4 & 5 street for one call you are geting 10 to 15 to one odds Where do the number come from? one 3rd st. 6-7 call on 4th st 4-5 call and 5 st 3 call. Remember on 6 & 7th St you are getting great chaseing odds. Many more hands are playable when you have a calling station table [img]/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img] LOL Ron

[StudStrategyCom]

I become frustrated with this just the same. I'm not sure if you're speaking about playing online or in a B&M. At the B&M's I've played at they won't fold even if you're showing 3 of a kind on fifth street. (lol...that's my experience anyway).

Keep a very close eye on the hands that are betting and calling against other hands showing plenty of overcards. They are usually dangerous and under estimated.

Since a good majority of my time is spent playing online, my suggestion would be to be aware of the day(s) of the week that you are playing. Avoid playing when the tables are wild with suck-outs and no-foldem players. Usually this is after payday on Thurs, Fri, Sat.

I've had quite enough of competing with Friday and Saturday night "just got my paycheck" gamblers who won't fold their pair of tens when I'm clearly showing a one card draw to an ace high flush with overcards, and end they up winning. I personally don't play 7 card stud online on a Fri or Sat night for example unless I'm very concentrated on playing 3 flushes or 3 straights period. Mid-day and mid-week I'm more likely to run into the calibre of players that can lay a hand down gracefully and not chase or suck out so much.

Supposedly playing at tables like this is the most profitable type of table to play at, however it's also the most frustrating for me, so someone else can just deal with it. My nerves are worth more than the potential profit at a wild table.

[Firetrap]

Thanks guys,

Ive just had a read through The Theory of Poker and i think i found my problem.

Generally ive been throwing away my non quality 3 flushes/str8s in an early position for fear of raises and rerasies - advice in T O P is to play a lot more come hands as, like some of you pointed out, you get better odds.

Also my "inventiveness" - or semi bluffs and bluffs etc - just simply dont work on the majority of players in this limit, though off the top of my head i can think of a few players i could successfully pull off the odd one or two on.

Ill generally play hidden pairs from anywhere and with any kicker cos like you say you stand to make a lot of cash when you fill a set on 4th. In fact at these limits ill play a lot of split pairs in a late position cos you often get paid off when pairing your door as well lol.

Maybe i dont play as tight as i let on in my post - i guess the semi bluffs, bluffs and playing more come hands are really what i want to change. They arent going to fold whatever i do i guess so i better have the goods.

Thanks again

[MRBAA]

Exactly right -- since they won't fold, abandon plays that gain some of their value from getting others to fold. Since they will call, add plays that will let you get extra calls. A hand like split 3s with a king down can be playable against opponents who will call you down when you pair your door card, or call you down with queens up when you hit a king. In stud, you have an extra bb round over he, so you have even more time to punish stubborn callers. You won't give up much in this game if you abandon straight draws lower than 9-10-J, as the pairs you can back in to don't win enough. Also, make sure your cards are live when you are on a draw. You'll probably be going to showdown, so you need a good chance of making your hand. Finally, be willing to get away from two pair, even big two pair, on fifth when a draw hits against you. Knowing when to do this and when not is key. If your cards are live and many are in, you may have odds to call simply based on your redraw to a big fullhouse.

[ChipWrecked]

I don't have anything to add here, except that I recently started playing micro-limit 7CS to break up the grind. I've enjoyed your site very much, keep up the good work. That and TOP have me making small profits at Party and UB.

FWIW: I play pretty much ABC in these games, no real need for trickery...

[StudStrategyCom]

Hi and thank you kindly. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] Still a lot of information I need to add to the site. It's updated daily.

At the micro limit tables it is more profitable to play more honestly for me as well. There are more heroic bets and calls involved against overcards at those tables. It makes for good practice on learning to read opponents and do estimates on card counting since the hands initially have so many callers as well.

Best of success at the tables!

[Al_Capone_Junior]

MR. StudStrategyCom! IF that is your REAL name!

Just kidding...

"I've had quite enough of competing with Friday and Saturday night "just got my paycheck" gamblers who won't fold ..."

The SD in stud is already high. When the players are real loose, it's higher. I personally prefer loose and wild players, but of course I realize how frustrating they can be. In fact, I'd rather have a couple folders and rocks in the game for the same reasons as you, but I still like some wildcards in the game.

Personally, I LOVE friday and saturday night gamblors. The thing is, I play no limit hold'em those nights. It punishes the loosy-goosey players so much more than stud does, I just can't resist. I tend to play stud early in the morning, when the late-night-ers are bleary-eyed and can't remember the cards, but I am nice and rested.

I'm not sure tho that no limit is the key to keeping your nerves healthy. Just putting forth an opinion, that's all.

al