When to fold quad Aces...

[GarageBounty]

You've read Skalnsky's couple of pages on when to fold aces in a tournament? Well, here is a situation when you ABSOLUTELY MUST fold quad aces.

This is a true story from Harrah's Casion in East Chicago, IN that took place Tuesday evening.

(the sequence of cards and preflop players may not be exact as I sat at the next table. however, the final motions and outcome are precisely accounted)
With the bad beat jackpot (AAA/1010 must be beaten)over $36K, three players see a flop that contains AArag. The turn brings another A. One player holds JJ another holds KK. The player with JJ tells the THIRD player (not accustomed to a card room/no idea what a bad beat jackpot is) to fold his hand because he knows the other opponent has KK. The newbie doesn't hear or listen, I'm not sure. River is a rag. First player shows JJ for Aces full of jacks, the second player shows KK for Kings full of jacks. Now its the newbie's turn to act. Instead of mucking his 'winning hand,' he exposes the ace for quad aces.

Instead of each player grabing over $1K and Mr. Quad Aces grabing $8k (1/4 of jackpot), the player get to wonder WHAT IF???? [img]/forums/images/icons/confused.gif[/img]

[SoBeDude]

I'm really confused here.

first I believe one player would have had aces full of kings, not kings full of jacks, right?

Second, how would a player who folds a hand that doesn't qualify get 8K? all he'd get is a table share or 1K like the rest, right?

-Scott

[NutFlop]

If you ever read the rules to a bad beat progressive, it usually has a clause about collusion. Since the player holding JJ told the other player to muck because he knew the third player had KK, wouldn't this qualify as collusion and therefore disqualify them anyway? Just a thought.

[GarageBounty]

Scott,

correct on both counts: Aces full of queens and the mucked quad aces would only receive around $1K

apologize for the oversight

[GarageBounty]

on the face of it, true.

however, a dealer who would receive a nice envelope (Chicago style) in the bathroom would probably turn a deaf ear. in addition, a whispered comment is difficult to prove with only video cameras: I assume the other players who forget what they heard.

[WiredPair]

Ok, being a newbie myself, I probably would have screwed the pooch here too like the newbie in your story. I guess I don't understand how the bad beat works yet.

My stupid question for the day is why wouldn't the bad beat jackpot still be "tripped". If the newbie turns over quad Aces, isn't he beating two hands that are above the required bad beat of Aces full over 10's??

Help a brother out. I certainly don't want to make a mistake like this that costs the whole table that much cash!

[mrbaseball]

Most jackpots require you to use "both" of you pocket cards. Since 3 Aces were on the board the newb here probably only used one. Meaning his kicker was outkicked by the board meaning only his pocket Ace played and not his kicker. If his kicker beat the board badbeat would still be in effect.

[Mangatang]

The rules for the Bad Beat jackpot that I've seen requires a that AAA over 10's full house has to get beat by quads or better. So in your example AAA-KK beating AAA-JJ would not qualify.

Do I remember this correctly? There is so much confusion over what the exact rules are, I would never muck the AAAA.

[Homer]

If the guy with quad aces wanted to be a dick he could hold the table hostage and agree to fold only if he got something like half of all the other players share of the jackpot. What choice would the other players have but to give in to his demand?

-- Homer

[Bob T.]

There are at least three common rules that apply to bad beat jackpots. All of them require that Aces full of tens loses.

The easiest conditions to meet, are those apparently in place in Chicago, where a pocket pair of tens or higher could lose to a higher pocket pair on a board of AAAxx.

The middle condition, is where AT, could lose to AJ on a board of AAJTx.

The most difficult condition, is where Aces full of Tens must be beat by Quads, and in order to have Aces full, you must have at least one Ace in your hand.