14b The Newbie Chronicles - Dude just play some live games!

Clarkmeister · #1 01-02-2003, 01:03 AM

Been reading these progress reports of yours, and the best advice you have gotten was given like 5 cycles of the moon ago. Play some $.50-$1 online for a few hundred hours. You are making this way too difficult. Worry about tournament play after learning cash play, not the other way around.

gl.

pufferfish · #2 01-02-2003, 02:01 AM

I agree with Clarkmeister wholeheartedly. I haven't paid that much attention to your posts because they exhaust me.

I'll give you credit for putting in the time, but you need to find out for yourself.

Put $50 on the line and try real money.

Maybe I'm wrong, but I think everyone needs to find a complex mess of a style that fits them, this is not a black or white game.

I have finally made some real progress at the micro-limit SH tables. This is after many months of play table experience and a couple at real. I found a set of starting hands that I like and a level of aggression that I am comfortable with. Is it perfect or best, heck no, but I have finally started winning.

This is a game of "feel" and science. You’re way ahead of me on the science part, but you'll never get the feel if you don't put some bucks out there.

My 2 cents.

Webster · #3 01-02-2003, 08:52 AM

ditto clark and puffer!!! I think people tend to forget the "feel" part. Poker is more of an art form then science!

Easy E · #4 01-02-2003, 11:58 AM

..in sticking with his/her original goal of waiting for 6 months for ring-game play....

Whether this is foolish or not, time will tell... though at least the discipline part may be helped?

April should be interesting...

Kurn, son of Mogh · #5 01-02-2003, 12:16 PM

I'll add my two cents here - he'll NEVER be ready. Did you see his answer to a post on the *low-limit* board? Says he's "six months behind" someone who is just starting playing for real money.

At least in this respect, poker is no different from any other challenge in life: Learning to drive, moving out on your own, getting your first job, having a kid. There is no way he can ever feel 100% "ready" before you actually do it for real.

Just like getting a degree in X doesn't teach you everything about how to handle a job in X, reading S&M and Jones et. al. and playing for fake money won't teach him everything he'll need to know about how to play poker.

Nobody is "ready" to play poker for real money until they've spent several hundred hours playing poker for real money and had the opportunity to learn from their mistakes. Mistakes for fake money aren't real-life mistakes. They teach nothing.

I know this runs counter to the *poker's not gambling* mantra, but either your a gambler or you're not a gambler. Our friend is not a gambler.

Easy E · #6 01-02-2003, 12:48 PM

because i disagree with at least ONE statement you made:

"Just like getting a degree in X doesn't teach you everything about how to handle a job in X, reading S&M and Jones et. al. and playing for fake money won't teach him everything he'll need to know about how to play poker.

Nobody is "ready" to play poker for real money until they've spent several hundred hours playing poker for real money and had the opportunity to learn from their mistakes. Mistakes for fake money aren't real-life mistakes. They teach nothing ."

While I CERTAINLY agree you can't learn EVERYTHING from playing "in practice", i think you didn't REALLY mean that you can learn NOTHING from practice play, given your "job X" comment right before it... did you?

While I ALSO agree that there is a vast difference between playing for fake money and for real money (especially money with some significance to your budget), I think that it can't be compared to your jobX model, or reading about snowboarding vs. actually snowboaring, in matter of degree.

In fact, in some senses, isn't play practice learning better? (for some of the same reasons that it's probably worse)
a) you don't have emotional attachment to your play (hopefully) or the fake money involved.... so hopefully less tilt is possible

b) you can avoid the trap of "situational factors" (or your PERCEPTION of those factors) affecting your analysis of certain hands, or plays, that you make:
"Oh, if that idiot wasn't playing such crappy hands, my 64s would WORK as a raising hand"

c) while playing poker for fake money is not doing it "for real", it IS doing it in a much closer manner to real than snowboard reading or college to learn job X... at least, if you try as much as possible to treat fake play as real play.
Would a tricycle-bicycle-motorcross (or, even better, motorcycle) analogy be more correct here?

I guess it boils down to, do you HAVE to be a "gambler", as you stated, to play poker for a semi-living, as "The Newbie" is working towards? You seem to think it is a requirement- anyone else?

I await comments,
thanks

Kurn, son of Mogh · #7 01-02-2003, 01:14 PM

Agreed that the "they teach nothing" statement was a bit hyperbolic.
<blockquote>In reply to:<hr />
In fact, in some senses, isn't play practice learning better? (for some of the same reasons that it's probably worse)
a) you don't have emotional attachment to your play (hopefully) or the fake money involved.... so hopefully less tilt is possible

[/ QUOTE ]

But tilt is something he'll have to learn to deal with. If he's a very competitive person, he'll go on tilt for fake money, too. If he isn't that competitive, then once the parameters are changed (i.e. now it's for real money), he may not be ready for his reaction.

<blockquote>In reply to:<hr />
b) you can avoid the trap of "situational factors" (or your PERCEPTION of those factors) affecting your analysis of certain hands, or plays, that you make:
"Oh, if that idiot wasn't playing such crappy hands, my 64s would WORK as a raising hand"

[/ QUOTE ]

I would almost agree with this and say he could test alternate theories about play of certain hands, but the problem here is that all the other factors involved in playing the game are not independent of the real money/fake money issue. I will say that playing for fake money at least allows him to become comfotable with the structure and the form of play. However, if you read back in his chronicles you will note that the atmosphere in a B&M cardroom made him uncomfortable. The only way to overcome that is to play in real cardrooms.

<blockquote>In reply to:<hr />
c) while playing poker for fake money is not doing it "for real", it IS doing it in a much closer manner to real than snowboard reading or college to learn job X... at least, if you try as much as possible to treat fake play as real play.
Would a tricycle-bicycle-motorcross (or, even better, motorcycle) analogy be more correct here?

[/ QUOTE ]

This may not be good for him. The complexities of poker are very subtle. The fact that fake-money games may be a close approximation to real-money games may actually hurt his ability to adjust.

I have nothing against his systematic approach to learning the game, but as most others here have also stated, that systematic approach MUST include real money games.

pufferfish · #8 01-02-2003, 01:35 PM

Since I haven't been following the "chronicles" threads, perhaps this has already been brought up.

Play Omaha/8 at full tables and play to the nuts. This is a game that can (and at first probably should) be played very methodically. I have found some pretty decent play games at Paradise that I think would provide valuable practice.

mdlm, have you considered Omaha/8?

bernie · #9 01-02-2003, 04:57 PM

"until they've spent several hundred hours playing poker for real money and had the opportunity to learn from their mistakes. Mistakes for fake money aren't real-life mistakes. They teach nothing."

you can learn from fake games, but its very limited compared to what one will need to beat a live game...beating a play money table, you should be able to beat that texture should it come up in a live game...and it does at times...

also...live play not only do you learn from your mistakes, but you also must learn how even though opponents will make mistakes, and some huge, and you played the hand fantastic, you can still lose the pot. ths is one of the highest hurdles that many never get over....

i agree i think the player is thinking way to much black and white about the game...and he's been told so by many posters to no avail....

he'll have to learn those mistakes/lessons on his own, and not benefit from other's experiences...which is too bad..b/c it makes learning that much easier...

oh well...

the posts are almost like a cartoon strip

b

bernie · #10 01-02-2003, 05:05 PM

"But tilt is something he'll have to learn to deal with. If he's a very competitive person, he'll go on tilt for fake money, too. If he isn't that competitive, then once the parameters are changed (i.e. now it's for real money), he may not be ready for his reaction."

i think the more competetive you are, the more you may experience possible tilt on even play money games...a suckout is a suckout and pot entitlement knows no limit. this is a basic stage for many players with limited knowledge. when i was just a pup, i tilted online in some play money games....but then i really learned how to play, and understand the inside parts of the game, so my tilt factor is very low...

if it's possible to learn the signs, any signs, of tilt on a fake money table, it may save some chips...

though it is worse given the added emotion added to a monetary investment....

but it is fun to watch 'pro' play money players tilt....cracks me up...and seeing how stupid they look, you know how bad you can look....

have a good one..

b