WTF is wrong? Am I one of "those people"?

sameoldsht · #1 04-15-2005, 07:41 AM

Brief history: way back I started out playing 1/2 Party, basically following WLLHE advice to the letter. I would simply log on to Party and get into the "next available seat" on any table. For months no attention was paid to VPIP, average pot size, or any player stats at all. I eventually got PT to evaluate my own play...then got into detailed notes on opponents. For 150K hands or so I did this and I was at about 3.2 BB/100. I considered this kick ass as my bankroll grew.

Then I started using Player View, REALLY taking detailed notes, relying on the stats and notes a ton. Shortly thereafter, I moved up to 2/4. If a table got below 30% VPIP, I was outta there and looked for another "loose" table. I sought the 40% VPIP tales and drooled when I got on one. Yet I lost my ass.

Well, not exactly lost my ass, but my BB/100 plummeted to about ZERO - break even - over the first 50,000 hands. This pissed me off. The "I'm running bad" thing didn't feel right. It just felt like something was systemically wrong.

So, after checking my stats and realizing that my VPIP, PFR, AF, etc. numbers were almost exactly the same as when I was kicking ass, I did an experiment.

I started to simply get on the waiting list for the 4 biggest average pot size games on 2/4. I would join the first two tables whenever a seat became available, as long as they were full tables. Of course these games weren't the top 4 pot-sized tables by the time I got on, but I didn't let that influence me at all, since it didn't when I first started playing in the "olden days".

In fact, most of these tables were (and are now) in the 20-25 VPIP range - not exactly a fishin hole according to most here. I seem to see many of the same money bags and eagles at these tables by the time I get there...obviously mining the fish who were there before I got there. These folks usually leave shortly after I arrive, presumably because the VPIP has decined and "tight asses" like me arrive.

Guess what? I'm back to 3+ BB/100 over about 30K hands and the bankroll has begun to grow again.

WTF is up? I usually laugh at those people that say stuff like "I'd rather play tighter players who respect raises" or "I do better agianst people who know how to really play poker", etc., etc. Now I'm wondering if I'm actually one of these people. [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

mannika · #2 04-15-2005, 08:14 AM

If you think that you play fundamentally better against tight players than against loose ones, than you need to re-evaluate how you are playing against loose donks rather than searching for tight games at Party.

Playing against idiots is almost always more profitable IF you learn how to play against them correctly. This, of course, means more value betting, and less bluffing HU (something I have to work on). Perhaps this is the problem?

crunchy1 · #3 04-15-2005, 08:17 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Playing against idiots is always more profitable

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Fixed! [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

mannika · #4 04-15-2005, 08:22 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Playing against idiots is always more profitable

[/ QUOTE ]

Fixed! [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

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Thanks, don't know how that other word got in there.

unimproved · #5 04-15-2005, 09:26 AM

I think the fact that you broke even for 50k against donks and then won 3BB/100 for 30k at comparatively worse tables is a testament to the power of variance.

crunchy1 · #6 04-15-2005, 11:33 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I think the fact that you broke even for 50k against donks and then won 3BB/100 for 30k at comparatively worse tables is a testament to the power of variance.

[/ QUOTE ]

you should know all about variance being a pro minesweeper player!! [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

ckessel · #7 04-15-2005, 11:33 AM

I think there's a lot of merit in your analysis. If you play with donks, 6-7 to a flop with AK and miss, do you bet the flop? Yea, I do and it's probably pointless. Money off donks comes from relentless betting made hands and big draws. Auto-betting that missed AK on the flop probably doesn't make sense in an uber-loose game. No one is going to fold and the odds of reverse domination are huge.

In a tight game you're AK may still be good and even if it isn't, people will fold bottom pairs quickly. When I played on the Prima site to clear a bonus the games were very tight, usually 3 people saw the flop. I kicked absolute ass. My auto-bets on the flop frequently caused people to fold and I know they probably often had pocket pairs or low pair. On loose party games folks simply will not fold any made hand, however weak.

So which game is more lucrative? Definitely party, if you play it right. I'm still learning how to deal with uber-loose in some situations (overcards and medium pockets are my downfall still). However, if you play at a tight-passive table, it's also pretty easy to make money. The hard tables are the tight aggressive tables. VPIP < 30 can be pretty profitable if the folks have post flop aggression numbers < 1.0. You're going to steal alot of pots with average hands and get a lot of free cards on your draws.