Love or Hate?

PokerBob · #1 04-04-2005, 09:11 PM

PF raiser is a LAG donk (43/14). Capper is 41/4 (not sure what to call him.) FPS?

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (10 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is MP3 with 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
4 folds, MP2 raises, Hero 3-bets, 1 fold, Button caps, 2 folds, MP2 calls, Hero calls.

Flop: (13.33 SB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (3 players)
MP2 checks, Hero bets, Button calls, MP2 calls.

Turn: (8.16 BB) A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (3 players)
MP2 checks, Hero checks, Button checks.

River: (8.16 BB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3 players)
MP2 bets, Hero raises
[img]/images/graemlins/blush.gif[/img]

Chairman Wood · #2 04-04-2005, 09:15 PM

FPS is you think PF capper is folding AK

PokerBob · #3 04-04-2005, 09:16 PM

[ QUOTE ]
FPS is you think PF capper is folding AK

[/ QUOTE ]

He checked the turn, so I don't give him an A.

Chairman Wood · #4 04-04-2005, 09:21 PM

[ QUOTE ]
41/4

[/ QUOTE ] Any notes saying he is capable of making big folds? These types love to see showdown with lowest of pocket pairs.

Evan · #5 04-04-2005, 09:23 PM

The button has KK if you have >100 hands on him.

Rhone · #6 04-04-2005, 09:38 PM

[ QUOTE ]
The button has KK if you have >100 hands on him.

[/ QUOTE ]

Agreed, but is he folding KK?

This is an interesting hand, and I think well played, but I'm still on the fence. Raising is probably the only chance PokerBob has of winning this hand, but is it a long-term winning play? I'm eager to hear the opinions of some better players than me...

Argus · #7 04-04-2005, 09:40 PM

I don't know about love, but what about just liking it?

You make a strong and correct isolation move, but a ridiculous button interferes. Still, given their range of possible hands it's hard to put them LAG a better hand than you have. With an overpair it's a mistake not to bet this flop, so I think the main play in question is the turn. I would prefer this with a stronger read, but I still think it's ok. Your line is very dependent on button being willing to fold a pair TT-KK when faced with two bets on the river. Conventional wisdom says you should bet this, and I only like your line if you are confident that button will bet an ace and check through other hands, and also that LAG will lead into you on the river if it's checked through. That allows you to execute a river raise perfectly and hopefully fold a better overpair.

What's your plan if button bets this turn? Assuming he's the passive sort I think you can fold, so there is some danger to your plan. If he has an ace he isn't folding no matter what you do, and your line costs you two more bets when he donkey-calls you on the turn (as passive players love to do). But if he has another overpair that he wouldn't fold for one bet on the turn, but is likely to fold for two on the river (thinking that means your ace missed a check/raise) then this plan is a coup. You're also in trouble though if he is determined to take his hand to showdown. So although I support your line under the proviso that the circumstances I just described are met, it depends a great deal on button's willingness to fold. If you don't think he's out of the hand either way then you are probably better off betting the turn and hoping to get him right there. Someone who only raises 4% of their hands is probably holding strong cards when they cap preflop, but someone who plays 41% of their hands is ready to make some mistakes for you. This is a tought judgement call and I don't like to get tricky against someone without a read that my trick is likely to work, or at least not hurt me (and losing two extra bets would hurt). My conclusion: nice hand, but dangerous against the wrong opponents.

PokerBob · #8 04-04-2005, 09:40 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The button has KK if you have >100 hands on him.

[/ QUOTE ]

Agreed, but is he folding KK?

This is an interesting hand, and I think well played, but I'm still on the fence. Raising is probably the only chance PokerBob has of winning this hand, but is it a long-term winning play? I'm eager to hear the opinions of some better players than me...

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree that button has me beat, so IMO the only moves are fold or raise. Given villains laggish tendencies, I thought he might be betting the scare card. I felt sassy, so I raised.

PokerBob · #9 04-04-2005, 09:43 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I don't know about love, but what about just liking it?

You make a strong and correct isolation move, but a ridiculous button interferes. Still, given their range of possible hands it's hard to put them LAG a better hand than you have. With an overpair it's a mistake not to bet this flop, so I think the main play in question is the turn. I would prefer this with a stronger read, but I still think it's ok. Your line is very dependent on button being willing to fold a pair TT-KK when faced with two bets on the river. Conventional wisdom says you should bet this, and I only like your line if you are confident that button will bet an ace and check through other hands, and also that LAG will lead into you on the river if it's checked through. That allows you to execute a river raise perfectly and hopefully fold a better overpair.

What's your plan if button bets this turn? Assuming he's the passive sort I think you can fold, so there is some danger to your plan. If he has an ace he isn't folding no matter what you do, and your line costs you two more bets when he donkey-calls you on the turn (as passive players love to do). But if he has another overpair that he wouldn't fold for one bet on the turn, but is likely to fold for two on the river (thinking that means your ace missed a check/raise) then this plan is a coup. You're also in trouble though if he is determined to take his hand to showdown. So although I support your line under the proviso that the circumstances I just described are met, it depends a great deal on button's willingness to fold. If you don't think he's out of the hand either way then you are probably better off betting the turn and hoping to get him right there. Someone who only raises 4% of their hands is probably holding strong cards when they cap preflop, but someone who plays 41% of their hands is ready to make some mistakes for you. This is a tought judgement call and I don't like to get tricky against someone without a read that my trick is likely to work, or at least not hurt me (and losing two extra bets would hurt). My conclusion: nice hand, but dangerous against the wrong opponents.

[/ QUOTE ]

I insta-muck if either player bets the turn. The turn checking through tells me CO has JJ-KK. Donk could have anything.