How did I play this $50+5 hand?

jedi · #1 01-28-2005, 03:14 AM

I decided to try to check raise the flop, but once I missed I had to lead out on the turn. What about the river? Misplayed on all streets?

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t30 (8 handed) converter

saw flop|saw showdown

UTG (t1250)
UTG+1 (t1830)
MP1 (t1420)
MP2 (t1375)
CO (t1135)
Button (t2345)
Jedi (t1275)
BB (t1620)

Preflop: Jedi is SB with J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
3 folds, MP2 calls t30, 1 fold, Button calls t30, Jedi completes, BB checks.

Flop: (t120) J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (4 players)
Jedi checks, BB checks, MP2 checks, Button checks.

Turn: (t120) T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (4 players)
Jedi bets t150, BB calls t150, MP2 folds, Button calls t150.

River: (t570) 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (3 players)
Jedi bets t300, BB raises to t600, Button folds, Jedi calls t300.

Final Pot: t1770

Results in white below: 
BB has 5c Jd (full house, fives full of jacks).
Jedi has Js As (two pair, jacks and fives).
Outcome: BB wins t1770.

morgan180 · #2 01-28-2005, 03:20 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Turn: (t120) T (4 players)
Jedi bets t150, BB calls t150, MP2 folds, Button calls t150.

[/ QUOTE ]

It seems to me at the 50s and up that the smooth call here should set off a few alarms. At the lower levels you're probably ahead..but I think I've read that up at those levels "calling is the new raising."

JMHO and I never play at this level so it's just a thought.

adanthar · #3 01-28-2005, 03:24 AM

You want to bet the flop to avoid this type of stuff, but given the way you played it you can safely fold the river.

jedi · #4 01-28-2005, 03:31 AM

Given that I should have bet the flop, what kind of hands would I want to check-raise with? I was probably off on my reads as well. I thought there would be someone agressive enough to try to take the pot on the flop, since that's what I had been seeing before.

Phil Van Sexton · #5 01-28-2005, 10:51 AM

I assume that you were hoping the button would take a stab at this pot with nothing or an underpair, and then you could checkraise and take down the pot. You could just as easily do this with 72o. With AJ, this is just a waste and has the strong possiblility of giving a free card that could be a K or Q.

Let's say the button did bet 100. You checkraise for 200 more. BB folds (well not in this case, but we are talking about what would usually happen). Button has a lot of chips and may decide to call with lot of hands given the pot odds.

Now the pot is 720. You have 945 left. You are first to act on the turn. Suddenly, your options are quite limited. Oh, and you'll be first to act on the river too. Is this really what you want?

TPTK is a great limit hand, but in NL, it is vastly overrated. You are also out of position in this hand. DO NOT BUILD A BIG POT. Bet 90 on the flop. Bet 1/2 the pot on the turn. Use your judgement on the river.

morgan180 · #6 01-28-2005, 01:21 PM

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TPTK is a great limit hand

[/ QUOTE ]

I have to strongly disagree with you - with your little ability to make the odds unfavorable for callers on strong draws TPTK hands go way down in limit.

[ QUOTE ]
DO NOT BUILD A BIG POT.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with this - great point.

ColdestCall · #7 01-28-2005, 01:50 PM

Personally, I'd be a lot more likely to check raise the flop with no piece, or a small piece, than the hand you had, but only if I thought I was sitting with players who were both aggressive AND capable of folding to a check-raise (these players arent all that uncommon at the 50+5). I find that most players read a check-raise as a show of strength, which is why I dont like to do it that much with a strong hand. I want them to get it into their head that I bet the pot with good hands - it makes it easier to steal the pot when I have nothing. And, if they want to think I'm bluffing when I bet out on the flop and call me down with a hand like J-5 in this situation, that's ok too - next time I bet I probably will be bluffing. The important thing is to keep track of your table image as it is changing hand by hand, and to have an idea of what you have done against certain players recently. This helps you to time both your bluffs and value bets better.

Given how you played the hand, you can safely fold the river.

Phil Van Sexton · #8 01-28-2005, 01:57 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I have to strongly disagree with you - with your little ability to make the odds unfavorable for callers on strong draws TPTK hands go way down in limit.

[/ QUOTE ]

By this logic, top set is not a great limit hand either.

morgan180 · #9 01-28-2005, 03:27 PM

[ QUOTE ]

By this logic, top set is not a great limit hand either.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well I agree - sets are very suceptible to the same problem especially on coordinated boards. But I think you would agree that top set is a much stronger holding than TPTK. My point being was that in no limit, when you have TPTK you can break off a draw by betting in such a way to make the odds unfavorable to call for the draw, where in limit you cannot. So I would argue that TPTK has more power in NL than in limit. Raising draws out of a hand with TPTK is standard practice in NL, where you can't do that in limit at all.