So what's so special about position?

[texasrattlers]

As a relative newbie, I have some understanding of the importance of position. As I see it, position gives you the advantage of getting "information" on your opponents' hands. However, why couldn't an expert player manipulate this information game out of position just as easily from within position? A play made from out of position has the inherent extra bit of information that the play is being made out of position. So plays made from out of position should be that much stronger.

Any thoughts?

[Benholio]

Here is a scenario to illustrate the advantage/disadvantage of position.

UTG minraises with JJ, MP1 and CO call with TT and 99 respectively, SB folds, and you call in the BB with 88.

Flop comes 247 rainbow. You bet out to protect your hand against overcards (or to get value from top pair), and get various calls and raises. You either lose what you already put in the pot, or lose some more.

Same flop / hands and you are on the button. You get a chance to see the multiple bets and raises before committing anymore chips to the pot.

This is an extreme example, but in multiway pots especially, you really want to know whether or not there is going to be a lot of action before entering a pot.

Even with a monster hand, you'd rather be in late position. If you are in early position, you are forced to either bet out and risk losing some players, or go for the checkraise and risk giving free cards. Put yourself in late position and you will either have a chance to flat-call, raise, or open the pot with a greater chance of callers.

Those examples are all post-flop, even. Position pre-flop is even easier to see the advantage/disadvantage of. Say you have AJ or AQ in early position. If you limp in or raise, there are 7-9 other unknown hands out there that could have you dominated, or raise and put you in a bad spot.

If you are in the CO or Button with these hands, you can have information on 6-7 other players hands based on their pre-flop action, and there are only 2-3 unknown hands to worry about.

[Biff M.]

In addition to the physical button, we have the situation when the PF aggressor is to your left, which might give you "the button".

[eastbay]

[ QUOTE ]

However, why couldn't an expert player manipulate this information game out of position just as easily from within position? A play made from out of position has the inherent extra bit of information that the play is being made out of position. So plays made from out of position should be that much stronger.

Any thoughts?

[/ QUOTE ]

Sure. But you can't escape the fact that every position after you is one more chance that somebody's picked up a monster, and there's no way for you to know about it, since they haven't acted yet.

Think of it in terms of blind stealing, where you want to pick up the blinds without a call. If N players each have 10% chance of calling you, how many do you want to act after you? Answer: as few as possible. Each player left increases the chance you've run into a calling hand.

This is only one aspect of positional importance, but it's a big one in SnGs. There are also situations where it may be advantageous against some opponents to have earlier position. For example, if two players enter a pot with non-premium hands and miss, usually the first one to bet takes it down. Being first to act gives you this initiative. But that's an exception to the common case that acting later is better.

eastbay

[texasrattlers]

[ QUOTE ]
Sure. But you can't escape the fact that every position after you is one more chance that somebody's picked up a monster, and there's no way for you to know about it, since they haven't acted yet.

[/ QUOTE ]

But just because they represent a good hand does not mean they have a good hand, of course. So, you never really "know" that someone has picked up a monster. If *we* agree on that, and *others* think they "know" that someone has picked up a big hand, wouldn't others respect the value of our hand played out of position that much more? So, being out of position would be more valuable since it gives so much more strength to our plays.

[eastbay]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Sure. But you can't escape the fact that every position after you is one more chance that somebody's picked up a monster, and there's no way for you to know about it, since they haven't acted yet.

[/ QUOTE ]

But just because they represent a good hand does not mean they have a good hand, of course. So, you never really "know" that someone has picked up a monster. If *we* agree on that, and *others* think they "know" that someone has picked up a big hand, wouldn't others respect the value of our hand played out of position that much more? So, being out of position would be more valuable since it gives so much more strength to our plays.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you're missing the point.

Yes, EP plays should get additional respect, but only because it is suicidal to play bad hands from EP. It is suicidal precisely because you will run into bigger hands more often, the more people there are to act after you. That's just how the numbers go. It's not some psychological game to be manipulated. There's this little thing called th e showdown which you have to contend with at some point.

eastbay

[texasrattlers]

Very nicely stated. This makes a lot more sense to me now.

Thanks to all who posted for helping me understand position a little better.