When to Stop And Go?

[Esoteric]

I originally posted this as a reply to this thread, but maybe it belongs here. Any ideas?

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After thinking about this hand and reading the responses I wonder what would be the point of the stop-and-go play at all? Are there some general rules that outline when you should think about using the play?

The only reason I can really think of is to make sure a flush card doesn't come on the turn. This reduces the odds of loosing the hand if re-raised all-in on the flop. If you use this play and a flush card comes on the turn you can still let the hand go whereas a blank allows you to use the stop-and-go play.

There is the obvious risk the board pairing up on the turn if you just call, but maybe that is acceptable over re-raising the flop and having some sort of flush+ draw which could have around 50% chance to win the hand re-raise you all-in and draw both cards.

[Louie Landale]

Stop-and-Go is calling a raise, then betting out on the next round? The problem with this play is that alert folks will conclude, rightfully, that you have a reasonable hand but one that doesn't want a major confrontation. These folks are going to take this pot from you.

It works so long as its GOING to cower the opponents, and you need to have them profiled pretty good before using it.

- Louie

[Al_Capone_Junior]

I personally feel that the stop-n-go is not very useful in a no limit game. I think your assessment is correct here, Louie.

It has some applications in a limit game however. As an example, say you have JTs and call a raise from the bb, three handed. The flop is ten high, you bet, mp folds, and aggressive preflop raiser auto-raises right on cue. Well, you might call, then if no overcards to your jack come, bet right out again on the turn. Or something like that [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

al

[DaffyDuck]

[ QUOTE ]
I personally feel that the stop-n-go is not very useful in a no limit game.

[/ QUOTE ]

Let's address a situation that has come up several times for me of late, all with a very crappy end for me. Lets say you have AK, AQ in the blinds and are looking at a raise. Your stack is such that an all-in is the only practical re-raise amount.

If you decide to go all-in it is because you are trying to make PP fold and avoid being a small dog. Other hands you want to call you but the range of hands he is likely to raise with makes PP somewhat more likely, doesn't it? So, the guy calls with 77 and you lose.

I ponder the stop-n-go. What if you smooth call the raise from the blind knowing you will be first-to-act on the following round. Then go all-in on the flop. If he hit his set so be it but I'm pondering the notion (against the numnutz I play against in $10+1 SNGs) that I have more folding equity on a flop with overcards then I do preflop when they have 88 and will call all their chips with it. Maybe only a little more since some of these guys will still call even with overcards on the board but it is still increased.

What about if you are not in the blinds and limp, hoping for a raise. You smooth call the raise and go all-in on the flop first to act? Or call a raise and hope the PP checks to you on a board with overcards so you can go all-in? Do these plays make sense as useful examples of a stop-n-go in NL? What kind of reads would you want on your opponent to make this play correct? Having been busted out numerous times of late in similar situations where I raised all-in preflop and my opponent, in my opinion, made bad calls with small-med PP. Would they be more likely to fold after they missed the flop and were looking at overcards? Would they fold more often enough to make this +ev over the number of times they would fold preflop vs. calling and busting you vs. calling you and you winning the race? Hope this question makes sense.

Thoughts?

Bob

[maurile]

[ QUOTE ]
After thinking about this hand and reading the responses I wonder what would be the point of the stop-and-go play at all? Are there some general rules that outline when you should think about using the play?

The only reason I can really think of is to make sure a flush card doesn't come on the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]
If you're going to make sure of anything on the turn, it's not really a stop-n-go.

A stop-n-go is when you just smooth call out of position on one round of betting with the intention of leading out all in on the next round.

It is almost never a good play in a cash game, but it is an important tactic in tournament play. (It is generally minus chip EV, but it enhances survival.)

Suppose you have Q [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] J [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] in the big blind. The blinds are 100/200 and you had 900 before posting. It's folded to the button, who min-raises to 400. In a cash game, you're in an all-in-or-fold situation. But in the latter stages of a tournament, you should do a stop-n-go. Call the additional 200, then bet your remaining 500 chips on the flop no matter what cards come. You are risking the same number of chips this way as you would have by re-raising all in pre-flop, but you have increased your chances of winning the hand.

There's no way your opponent would have folded to your all-in bet before the flop, so the only way to win by going all in pre-flop is to end up with the best hand. But the stop-n-go gives you two ways to win. You might end up with the best hand, or you might get your opponent to fold the would-be winner to your bet on the flop.

It's minus chip EV because much of the time your opponent folds to your flop bet, you would have wanted him to call (if you knew what he had). So just going all in pre-flop would maximize your winnings when you win, while you lose your whole stack when you lose either way. But in certain stages of a tournament, it's worth it to sacrifice some chip EV for a better chance at winning the pot (and thus staying alive).

[mmcd]

I think a stop/n/go is a good way to get a lead 3-bet in on the turn in aggressive limit games. It is especially useful when you have a hand like AA or KK on a ragged board with your opponent having position and the lead.

For example: I raise in MP w/ AA and get 3-bet by an aggro player behind me. I will call his 3-bet and checkraise on the flop. When my flop checkraise gets 3-bet, I will often call and lead 3-bet the turn as the stop/n/go looks like I have a so-so hand that doesn't want to give a free card to AK/AQ/etc.

I think its useful in that it will encourage very aggressive players to raise you on the expensive street (either for value, as a bluff, or for the free showdown)

[M.B.E.]

FYI here is a link to some of Greg Raymer's posts on stop-and-go in a tournament context: six stop-and-go threads.

[SparkyDog]

Why not just three bet and lead the turn too? The S&G isn't that useful against free card raises HU when you can just three bet, unless I'm missing something.