Kings against 2 lows, 20-40 7CS8

Even though this is a Hi-Lo game I would appreciate comments from our respected peers: Dynasty, TRLS, pat capricio, ratso, CJ, and all others! (Doc AZ, are you still here?). The previous post by Marco inspired me to post this as an example of how hard it is to play high pairs in Hi-Lo.


This is 20-40 Stud Hi-Lo in Los Angeles. We were short handed (6 players). The two players in the pot with me were anxious to get into a 40-80 mixed game and had their seats locked up. Player2 had just lost a good size pot to me when I scooped with a 6-5 low and Ace high flush. I think it may have affected the way he played me in this hand.


Player1 XX/5d Bring In $5

Player2 XX/7h Raise $20

P3: XX/8 Fold

P4: XX/9 Fold

P5: XX/Q Fold

Me: TsKd/Ks Raise $40


Player1,2 both call.


Fourth Street:


Me: TsKd/KsQc Bet

Player1 XX/5d4d Raise

Player2 XX/7h5h Re-raise!


What would you do? Fold, call or raise?

Player2 just lost a big pot to me and is trying to push me out of the pot (He lost with Kings up). It's 2 bets to me. I stop and think. They both have straight flush low draws. Both scary boards. I think I may still have the best hand. Their hands are not complete yet. One of the Queens is dead, but 4 Aces, 2 Kings, 2 Queens, 3 Tens, and 4 Jacks are still live. I call. Player1 4-bets it! Player2 calls. I call.


Fifth Street:


Me: TsKd/KsQc2s Check

Player1 XX/5d4dJc Check

Player2 XX/7h5hTd Bet $40


Here is the 5th St. decision point. We all caught blanks. Would you go to the river? or give it up with $400 in the pot? That's 10:1 to call.

I reasoned that they may not make thier lows, I could catch a second pair or trips. Besides they are counterfieting each other. I decided to call. Player 1 called.


Sixth Street:


Me: TsKd/KsQc2s3h Check

Player1 XX/5d4dJcJs Check

Player2 XX/7h5hTd6c Bet $40


Now it is really ugly. I have put in alot of chips to get here with just one big pair. Player1 has got Jacks on board. Player2 made his low. I stopped and thought for a while. What would you do?


Stay tuned for the results. Same Stud channel. Same Stud time.


KeithO

Players 1 and 2 couldn't have hit better on Fourth Street. I don't see how it can be wrong to check and fold right there. You know it's going to cost you four bets to play.


Tom D

This is the right forum, but I'd be careful about asking high-only stud players for stud/8 advice. I play stud/8 against some very good high-only players, and they do some dizzy things in stud/8.


On third street, you're probably right to re-raise. The 7 has raised as the only guy who can possibly have a decent three-card low besides the bring-in. He had a good chance to steal, even from up front, except that you had two Kings. That the bring-in was willing to call $35 indicates that he probably has a good low hand. A shaky low hand or a worse high hand than Kings should fold, and a better high hand would probably re-raise.


On fourth street, your opponents both caught really nice cards. I confess that I would probably get stubborn in this spot. I think I'm barely better than break-even with big pairs, and I got my ass handed to me with them a few weeks ago. Tom's suggestion of checking and folding has merit. The pot is not that big yet, and it could get expensive. You bet, perhaps to find out where you were at. I think they let you know where you're at. It is true that they are not yet made, so you may have some chance to scoop, but this would take a hell of a parlay. It looks like both of them have a four-card low with excellent high possibilities. You can't expect both of them to bust out entirely. I probably wouldn't do it, but I think you have a fold.


Even though they both caught bad, I think that checking and calling on fifth is fine. It looks like the guy with the 7 in the door has a four-card low and a four-card flush. I don't think either of these guys would fold if you bet or check-raised.


Part of the reason I enjoy stud/8 so much is that I spend a lot more time in 75T6's spot than i do in your spot. You had to be squirming at that point. It sucks. I think that you have to call it down, assuming that it's only $40 on sixth and $40 on seventh. The pot's giving you about 3:1 on your two calls. And who knows, maybe the 6 paired that guy and you'll get to scoop and he'll go on tilt. That's gotta be worth $80, right? [img]/images/smile.gif[/img]

"Player1 XX/5d Bring In $5

Player2 XX/7h Raise $20

P3: XX/8 Fold

P4: XX/9 Fold

P5: XX/Q Fold

Me: TsKd/Ks Raise $40 "


Very marginal to continue, IMO. It might actually be better to just call to keep the pot small, but that's a different debate.


"Player1,2 both call.


Fourth Street:


Me: TsKd/KsQc Bet

Player1 XX/5d4d Raise

Player2 XX/7h5h Re-raise! "


Automatic check-put the dealer's eye out w/your folded cards. Jaysus! I mean, they only caught, like, perfect...


"Fifth Street:


Me: TsKd/KsQc2s Check

Player1 XX/5d4dJc Check

Player2 XX/7h5hTd Bet $40


[snip]Besides they are counterfieting each other. "


HUH??? The last thing they're doing is counterfeiting each other. In fact, they're contra-feited because they both have a five! There're tons of low cards, hearts, and diamonds still alive, and three of your key cards[QJT] are dead. Why are you still in this pot?!


"Sixth Street:


Me: TsKd/KsQc2s3h Check

Player1 XX/5d4dJcJs Check

Player2 XX/7h5hTd6c Bet $40 "


Your hand is complete shit. Fold. Even if you make K's up you could get whipsawed, fold, and watch J's up get half. Or, call a whipsaw all the way down w/3 K's and lose to a strt or flsh.


I'm sorry, Keith, but this was a horrible hand played horribly, no matter the result. IMO the fact they're moving to a bigger game means that they're FAR more likely to have monsters. Also, note how you got immediately placed in calling mode.


Thanks for posting this educational hand. I just got thru beating myself up over on the HE board, so I'm going to take it out on you. [img]/images/smile.gif[/img]

Andy, you forgot that they were both going to the 40 game. When I've got a seat locked in the bigger game the last thing I care about is 'getting even' w/someone in the smaller game.


Have you ever played a non-monster in your last hand at a smaller limit?


BTW, you "would probably get stubborn in this spot", eh? I AM gonna have to make that road trip this summer.... [img]/images/smile.gif[/img] That 30 7/8 game still going strong?

Bill,


I had overlooked the part about them chomping at the bit to get into the big game. Personally, I don't let this affect my play too much. I may forego a few $4/8 hands I've already paid for if my $30/60 seat opens up, but I still try to maximize my EV in the smaller games. This is particularly true if the smaller game is $15/30, which is still real money as far as I'm concerned.


Canterbury Park had a biggish tournament about a month ago, and a lot of guys came up from Chicago. The stud/8 game was tougher than usual, and I lost a significant chunk of change, much of it with big pairs. I think I do better with them than most of my usual competition does, but they're not much better than break-even a lot of the time, are they?


The stud/8 game has died down some. I didn't even get to play in it last week. I don't usually play Friday and Saturday nights, and those are the most likely nights. We frequently get it going on Wednesdays. It didn't go last week, and the week before it was short-handed the whole time and broke early. Some of the people who had really been fueling it have given up on it, I'm afraid. I may have to find honest work. If nothing else, there are great $15/30 hold'em games every day, and very good $30/60 hold'em on weekends and sometimes during the week.

How to lose a ton of money at hilo stud?


1- Playing big pair vs low draws


2- Failing to hit a good low-(straight) or (flush)4th street draw


Since it's easy to release those "trapping" big pairs early on the hand, losing with a good low draw with possibilities of straight or flush (or lucky trips)is almost unavoidable (with regard of other boards, of course).


In my opinion stud hilo is definitely a LOW game where occasional two pairs, trips, straights or flushes scoop the pot. When you play big pairs (let's suppose you start with K-Q-K) you can win only the high side of the pot...it's like playing a hand with a 50% rake.

In poor words with big pairs on 3rd either you win a small pot (since the good players who started with 3 low cards abandon the pot when they hit a 4th street BRICK) or you lose a huge one (or split a tiny pot after a lock low has a freeroll on you).


To give just an example take a look of this hand played online at pokerstars a week ago ($6-$12) :


I raised after the bring-in and 2 players fold and got 3 callers:


ME: (K-J)K (my KIngs are totally live)

opp. 1: (x-x)3

opp. 2: (x-x)Q

opp. 3: (x-x)5


On 4th I picked another awesome KIng, opp.1 and opp. 3 a low card and the Queen catched a suited Ten. At that point an "unb" raising war started capping the pot.


5th card:

ME: (K-J)K-K-x

opp.1: (x-x)3-4-6

opp.2: (x-x)Qs-10s-7s

opp.3: (x-x)5-2-A


Now I was fresh meat for the lions!!! (Yeah but few players throw away a trips of KIngs in that spot, me not [img]/images/smile.gif[/img]


To cut a long (sad) story short I lost a ton of money because opp.1 had a A-2-3-4-6 low, opp.2 had an obvious flush, opp.3 had a wheel A-2-3-4-5.

And I happily finished in the muck with my stupid trips of KIngs unimproved) NOte that opp.1 who lost the pot could easily assess on 5th that his low draw was the second low best hand (over two hands) and this is the reason why I prefer to play low cards to better understand where I am on a hand.


PLAYING BIG PAIRS AT HILO STUD? NO THANKS! [img]/images/wink.gif[/img]


Marco

Well, gang, you have confirmed my feelings about this hand. I played it bad. I should have folded on 4th street.


Sixth Street:


Player1 XX/5d4dJcJs Check

Player2 XX/7h5hTd6c Bet $40

Me: TsKd/KsQc2s3h Call


I made another bad decision to call. So did Player1.


Seventh Street:


Player1 XX/5d4dJcJs /X Check

Player2 XX/7h5hTd6c /X Bet $40

Me: TsKd/KsQc2s3h /9


A little voice spoke to me from Sklansky's book that said (paraphrasing): "If you have X% chance of winning the hand, it is a bigger mistake to lose the pot than to save the last bet." I called.

Player1 moaned and grabbed his cards. Player2 turned over his card, "7-6 low". Player1 did not call and was waiting for me to show. I waited until he mucked, which seemed to take forever. I survived with a single pair of kings. Whew!!


Final hands:


Me: TsKd/KsQc2s3h /9

Player1 A2/5d4dJcJs /T

Player2 23/7h5hTd6c /X


Player1 started with 4 to wheel, not suited.

Player2 had a low straight draw, not suited.

I managed to end the session up one rack in spite this hand. I got lucky. Next time I won't be stupid.


Thanks for the feedback. It is not easy to tell the world you screwed up, in order to get better.

-KeithO

You give lots of decisions and questions but only two of them are worth considering. The first is whether or not to fold call or raise on 3rd street. I have never ran the numbers on this, but, especially short handed, this is most likely a raising hand.


The other decision is what to do on 4th st. I probably would have checked and folded to a double bet. But, once I bet, I am absolutly calling the rest of the way. 6th and 7th streets are no brainers. Problem on river would have been if jacks bet out and was raised. On 5th street only decision is to call or check raise to hope to drive out middle player, but that's unlikely.

in any loose games i think playing any pair other than Aces is suicide.


brad