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#1
08-09-2004, 02:43 AM
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What line should I have taken? (call or raise the flop?)
Live game 4/8 Kill game. Kill is in effect, so it's a 8/16 game right now.
I'm in middle position with KJ [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]. The Small Blind has the Kill blind. UTG limps and I limp. Cut off limps and the blinds check it through. Question #1. Do I fold this or raise this instead of calling? Okay, now here's where I think I should take one of 2 lines. Flop comes K [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] J [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]3 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]. Blinds check and UTG bets. Line 1 (the one I took): I raise. CO and BB fold, SB and UTG call. Ling 2 (the other one): I call, preferring to raise on the turn if a blank comes. Who know who calls, but SB and UTG will at least. Turn Q [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] Okay. The flush draw AND the straight draw (AT) got there. SB and UTG check to me. Line 1: I raised on the flop, no reason I shouldn't bet the turn, right? Well, I wuss out, figuring that someone was willing to check raise me. I check behind. Line 2: I checked the flop with the intention of raising the turn if a blank fell. Well, a blank did NOT fall. There's a flush draw and straight draw made out there. I can't possibly fold this, can I? What would I do if UTG bets into me? What if SB check-raises UTG? I have 2 pair on a coordinated board and prospects don't look good. THIS is where my problem is. What to do when you waited until the turn to raise and a blank did not fall. River J [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] Sweet! Line 1: Everyone checked to me, looks like no on whiffed on the check-raise. I bet, get 2 callers. Line 2: Well, doesn't matter really, I'd just be betting and raising. Results: UTG had AQ. I won with the Jacks full. SB mucked. The biggest question is really with the turn play should I take the "wait until the turn to raise" line. Other questions are whether or not I should even call pre-flop, and whether or not I should raise the flop or call/raise the turn? 
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#2
08-09-2004, 02:53 AM
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Re: What line should I have taken? (call or raise the flop?)
Hey Jedi,
In MP I prefer to raise with this hand after one limper, especially in a pot with some extra money in it. I don't think your limp is terrible though, and I certainly wouldn't fold this. As far as your analysis goes, line one is clearly the best IMO. No need to slow play this, especially with the draws out there. The turn card sucks but I think you have a bet here. If you're raised, I would call down. Why would you consider the slow-play in this situation?
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#3
08-09-2004, 03:46 AM
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Re: What line should I have taken? (call or raise the flop?)
I don't think the pot's big enough, nor is the board scary enough to wait for the turn, so I like the flop raise.
I don't understand not betting the turn. Getting check-raised sucks, but giving everyone w/ a diamond or a one-card straight draw a free chance to suck out seems to suck even worse.
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#5
08-09-2004, 01:53 PM
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Re: What line should I have taken? (call or raise the flop?)
[ QUOTE ]
Hey Jedi, In MP I prefer to raise with this hand after one limper, especially in a pot with some extra money in it. I don't think your limp is terrible though, and I certainly wouldn't fold this. As far as your analysis goes, line one is clearly the best IMO. No need to slow play this, especially with the draws out there. The turn card sucks but I think you have a bet here. If you're raised, I would call down. Why would you consider the slow-play in this situation? [/ QUOTE ] No, I wasn't slow playing. I was wussing out on a possible turn check-raise if a flush got there. Sounds like I did the right thing on the flop, to raise immediately. I should have bet the turn and then call down to a check-raise (well, in this case since I filled up, I would have raised and re-raised.) Second question: I'm in MP with a traditional 2nd best trouble hand. Why should I be raising this pre-flop with only 1 limper (and some extra dead blind money due to the kill)? If I were on the button with 4 limpers, I could see raising this for flush value, but I'm not sure about building this pot pre-flop, giving everyone and their grandmother odds to chase. I'm missing a key concept here, what is it?
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#6
08-09-2004, 02:25 PM
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Re: What line should I have taken? (call or raise the flop?)
I don't understand the rules. SB and BB both posted $8? Wow is that unfair to BB who pays double for winning nothing!
I think preflop qualifies as "It depends" (but OMG don't fold!). Raise versus call is not a big decision and the game texture and reads should be factored in. It's strange that some people would call the flop as a slowplay while others think it is part of a maneuver to force opponents out on the turn. Whatever, it's not a good idea. In general you will rarely lose this hand unless a flush draw or OESD hits. Those draws are invulnerable so the general idea is to maximize the pot size while praying to the poker deities for favorable cards. That rules out the force'em out theory. The slowplay idea is no good because raising the turn will force them out due to your poor position and small pot. Also there is plenty to like on this flop so you can expect some flop callers if you raise now. With luck the increasing pot size will enable them to call one more on the turn and river. Needless to say your turn call is terrible.
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#7
08-09-2004, 03:03 PM
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Re: What line should I have taken? (call or raise the flop?)
[ QUOTE ]
I don't understand the rules. SB and BB both posted $8? Wow is that unfair to BB who pays double for winning nothing! [/ QUOTE ] Sorry. BB posted a $4 blind and wound up just flat calling the extra kill blind.
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