Counting overcards as partial outs.

[Nemesis]

In SSHE Ed seems to advocate in most situations your 2 overcards to the flop are in general about .5 outs per card so 2 overcards to the flop is only 3 outs thus you need a fairly large pot to continue drawing to them. It seems to me on a ragedy flop if YOU are playing the premium hands that your outs are dirty much less than half the time. Am i just being overly optomistic?

[imitation]

This is an interesting idea but surely in a smaller pot your overcard outs are cleaner because it's less likely to make someone 2Pair.

[Octopus]

You allude to the answer. If the flop is raggedy, your outs are worth more. Also if you have few opponents, they are worth more.

Having said that, I can not recall a point in the book where he gives more than half an out to an overcard. I can think of one arguement in favor of such conservatism: If you are reverse dominated you are likely to lose a bet or two more when you hit than you will win in those cases where you are not. If that is the case then you should count the outs less highly than the true probability that they are tainted.

And, as always, it depends. If you opponents are any ace types, then your overcards are worth relatively less than if they are just any two suited types (or any two cards types [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]).

(NOTE: I am typing this as I think about it, so I could be missing something obvious.)

[tardigrade]

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And, as always, it depends. If you opponents are any ace types, then your overcards are worth relatively less than if they are just any two suited types (or any two cards types [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]).

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I wish I had SSHE to read about this, but I'm starting to learn the above lesson. With your AK over a 742 rainbow flop in a tough game, you're golden. But at the best micro tables, your A or K outs can easily make someone else two pair if they're still in when you catch.

[Octopus]

[ QUOTE ]
I wish I had SSHE to read about this, but I'm starting to learn the above lesson. With your AK over a 742 rainbow flop in a tough game, you're golden. But at the best micro tables, your A or K outs can easily make someone else two pair if they're still in when you catch.

[/ QUOTE ]

At the best tables, someone has a gutshot to the nut straight on that flop. [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

I can not recommend SSH more highly. There is material there I had never thought about (e.g. Finding Hidden Outs, pp108-112) and a lot which is much clearer to me having read it.