When you know your opponent really well

I'm not back yet, but yesterday I spent the day with some friends. The occassional poster "sooga" felt like it was okay if he tagged along, and we started talking about a hand we once played together. I said I'd post it to get feedback.


Sooga is a very tight player with no imagination. I'm not saying that to be mean, I've told him that constructively before. As such, he's fairly easy to read. It boggles the mind that anybody would ever call one of his bets. For only being 22, he is a rock.


And, he's on my immediate left in a 9-18 game a few months back. Two players are posting in middle position, and they check their option. I have A5s in the cutoff, so I raise, since nobody has willingly limped yet. I'm hoping to create some dead money and buy the button.


Foiled. Sooga 3-bets me on the button. Now, I'm posting this to get advice on both my play, and on Soogas. So, I'm going to say right now that he had AKo. All fold to me, and I call.


This is before the new rake structure at commerce, so there was 9.3 small bets, or 4.6 big bets in the pot.


I tell him I check blind (Gosh, Tommy's right...I check blind, and I have an A in my hand [img]/images/smile.gif[/img]). And before the flop comes, I throw 6 chips into the pot ala a checkraise. I pick them up, hold them in my extended hand, then block my eyes so I can't see the flop, and I stare at Sooga. Sooga also checks.


For the record, the flop came 2 4 6, rainbow, one spade.


Turn is a red ace, I check, Sooga bets, I call. Sooga is unimaginitive. he doesn't have 57, 35, 64, QQ, 99, AA, 26, or anything else like that. He has AKo or MAYBE AQs (this is what i was thinking to myself). But I called the turn bet because I was getting 5.67:1 when I had 7 outs (four 3's and three 5's) for a 44:7 or 5.28:1 shot. Without implied odds, this is a correct call, if I'm good enough to dump in on the river when unimproved.


Well, the river is a 3, and I checkraised Sooga. he will never let me forget it. See, I kinda sorta have taught Sooga a few things. I think he looks up to me as a sort of mentor. He respects my game, and I just pissed him off something fierce.


I should note, that after checkraising him, I gave him back one bet, because he's a good friend. I just wanted the impact of a checkraise. More sting, ya know.


But yesterday, we were discussing this hand, and I chastised him for betting the river.


And that is really the crux of this post. Normally, his bet is a no-brainer. He can't put me on two pair or a 5. When I just call the turn, he has to put me on Ax, where x is not a 2, 4, 6, or K.


But more importantly, I felt that he should know that I knew exactly what he had, so there's no value in his bet. Do you guys agree? The only time I'd call with a worse hand is if I had AQ, and then I may even throw it away.


Any thoughts on this?


Thanks,


Josh

I resent being called unimaginative. Often times when I find that I am in the unfortunate position of being seated at the same table as Josh I will imagine that I am anywhere but there.


As to the hand, I still defend my actions. I knew that Josh was on a blind-steal, and I know that he knew that I knew that. That said, I could be raising with any number of hands, including any two big cards, any mid pocket pair, pretty much anything. I figured that Josh knew that I knew that he was on a blind steal, so that if he had an actual late-position raise hand like an AJ, he could still call me down. Did I mention that I don't particularly like Josh? Well if I did, then that's not true. I hate him.

Sooga's my boy...I love that kid...


Here's the thing. Sooga is very unimaginitive in his play. If he had a middle pocket pair, he'd bet the flop, period, and he'd likely check the turn.


Sooga has never 3-bet a player who he thought was on a blind steal.


Seriously, when you know that your opponent knows you this well, who bets AK on the river here?


Josh

i think its time to lay off......hes the one still in the action, is he not?

Nope.


Nobody will ever accuse you of having informed opinions, will they?


Josh

Yea, unfortunately I'm not still in the action, unless you count those high-stakes $.50/$1 tables at Paradise Poker 'in the action'. As Mike McDermott would say, 'I'm off it'. I got kinda sick of old 'going to the casino, losing two racks of $1, $2, or $3 chips, and then going home a big loser' routine. Instead, I just stay at home, play my $0.50/$1 tables, and listen to Josh's stories of losing multiple racks of $3, $5, or $10 chips. I personally think it's a lot better financially this way. Well, for me anyway.

I don't think his bet was so bad. Debatable yes. Perhaps a check is better given the factors you say. But given the fact there were a couple of posters, your stealing requirements should go up. I wouldn't put someone on a steal with low cards or marginal high cards in that spot. (Hard to put anyone on low connectors on a steal) I could easily see you having less than A-Q, maybe A-9 through A-J or something. I also think you would be hard pressed to fold A-T or better on the river for one bet. If you say Sooga is tight and unimaginative and you have told him this, he might bet T-T - K-K the same way on the river, getting you to fold a marginal ace. Sometimes tight players will surprise you since they know you will trust them to have a certain hand. Then his river bet has value.


I would have bet the flop in Sooga's shoes though. And I wouldn't have given him his bet back. :-)

I've just gotten finished filing my brief in the case of Malmuth vs. Brier, do I now have to take up Gummy Worm vs. Sooga? [img]/images/smile.gif[/img]


Lots of times I figure a guy probably knows what I have, or close enough, yet they call anyway, figuring there's a chance they're wrong and the pot odds justify calling. When Sooga bet the river, this put (by my fuzzy math) $148 in the pot, so you'd be getting over 8:1 to call. So your read only has to be wrong 1 time in 9 for a call to be correct on your part. He knows this and thus I think he bet properly for value.


From his standpoint, with A-K, given the action (check the flop, call the turn), the only hand he could put you on is, as you indicate, A-x, and if I'm him, I'm gonna bet too, figuring you're gonna call if the "x" is big enough, which, considering you raised pre-flop, I'm gonna figure is indeed big enough.


BTW, it always looks bad when you give a guy a bet back at the table for everyone to see.

Well, you seemed to think that this guy idolizes you, when in fact he hates your guts.


Talk about informed opinions.

Damn. That's cold.


Here's how I read that: "I'm posting a message to a poker forum to get expert advice on how best to fuck over my friend, here."


No wonder the kid can't take a damn pot down - if a friend he's had since before either of you sat at a poker table is check-raising his ass on the river with a hand that he mistakenly discounted as a possibility, he'll be playing scared money at any limit and doubting himself constantly.


What did this post really show? Yeah, he misread you. He thought that you might be calling the turn without the straight potential. Given your play, you HAVE to have either the 3 or the 5, since 2 pair or AK would see you raising the turn like a madman.


He didn't read them as scare cards, because he put you on a weaker ace than his. AJo - I've seen you play that a lot. But you wouldn't have called with that, since you only would have had 3 outs to beat the hand you knew he had. You'd either have raised it on the turn to buy it at some point, or folded immediately. Against Sooga, you're folding it since you know he'll call you down making you for a friendly educational bluff.


Sooga - play the flop stronger with AK heads up. Figure that Josh is raising you on the turn if he does have 2 pair, and isn't even calling with a weak ace. YES - muck the AK on the river when he check-raises you. Do not play in a game against Josh.


Josh - next time you need $81 from a friend, gimme a call, as opposed to killing Sooga's spirit.


~D