On the bluff or off the bluff?

Both Dynasty and CJ have advised that in a 2-4 stud game with .25 ante, $1 bring in it is generally correct to bet a small pocket pair when you catch an ace with several opponents, none of whom have caught anything scary. I agree.

Where I think we differ is on how to play fifth. I tend to check/fold against most opponents if I don't actually improve on fifth. Furthermore, I believe this is a very profitable way to play.

Caveats: if my cards are all live and it is head up and the opponent is a frequent bluffer, I may call.

Generally, I believe you don't have a lot of edge against a field of low limit players who have been willing to hang in to fifth. Better to get out and wait until you do hit.

Players in these games make more calling then folding errors. So to exploit that, you want to play a little tighter. And by fifth, the pot is big enough, that these players are often not that far out of line to call.

Dynasty and CJ are both stronger and more experienced players, so I'd be interested in hearing their justification for betting/raising on fifth when you don't improve. Or for check/calling.

[Ray Zee]

with a pair and an ace if all is live, it may pay to go to the end many times if you arent faced with too much power. plus if you always check and fold you will get bet out all the time and never get free cards, unless you also checkraise with good hands. plus you wont get to win any pots on fifth street with no hand.

Ray, I think your comments apply more to higher limit games. My experience in the 2-4 game is that many players will stubbornly call you down with a pair of eights or a draw. Sometimes two or three will all chase. Plus, sometimes they will check behind you here. Plus, they will STILL call when you do bet here, even if you only do so with good cards. Not all the players are like this, of course, but many are. So why take them on when you're a little behind or only a little ahead? Why not wait to get your money in when you have a big lead? I find that my checkraises and reraises on early streets or when I am ahead are plenty to keep the more aggressive players from running over me.

[Jimbo]

It is generally poor logic to assume that if it works against superior players it will not work against inferior players. That is normally a method used to rationalize a style other than optimal play.

Jimbo

Jimbo, my point is that stronger players will NOTICE how you play, and relentlessly take shots at you. At low limits, about 1/2 a typical table doesn't notice how you play and another 1/4 misinterprets. Good players are more willing to fold when you hit that ace and they don't have much. Bad players won't, and when two or more of them are in against you, you are not a favorite. I think the early bet or raise is worth it as a semibluff in these games -- you may win there or you may improve your hand and want to continue betting. If you just break even on the play, it's worth it for the unpredictability it gives you. So when you hit an ace on fourth and it makes trip aces, you are more likely to get called. By check folding when you don't hit, you maximize your edge, playing the expensive streets hard when you're ahead, not getting money in when it's close or you're behind.

[Ray Zee]

MRBAA

you may be confusing being behind hand wise and money wise. many hands in poker that are behind hand wise show a profit if played. folding all your close decisions or decisions you dont understand well, may still enable you to win but will cut down the total amount you win.

[Michael Davis]

Mr. B,

There is a major inconsistency in your post:

"I tend to check/fold against most opponents if I don't actually improve on fifth. Furthermore, I believe this is a very profitable way to play."

"And by fifth, the pot is big enough, that these players are often not that far out of line to call."

If the other players are not that far out of line to call, neither are you. If you are usually folding on 5th with an ace overcard and an underpair, you are unquestionably folding way too much here. Furthermore, even if other players are a little out of line, the call should be correct for you, since you rate to get/save extra bets that they could not when you hit your hand.

By this time, as you correctly point out in your second statement, the pot has gotten so big that flounder and expert alike must continue with the hand. You are not gaining anything from anyone by making this mistake, but are leaving your money on the table for them. Pots are often large enough here to continue with bare underpairs and no overcards, so long as your sidecards are live and you can bring the action to a heads up contest.

If you are really folding this much on 5th street with the type of hand you describe, you should avoid getting into the situation at all by folding more with small pairs on 3rd street, because you are probably losing more than the antes with them.


Mike

[CJC]

MRB,

Don't forget that both Dynasty and I were talking about a heads-up situation also. ( or atleast a very short handed one )

CJ

[SittingBull]

with Dynasty and CJ if U are in a short-handed game or heads-up situation. With A's up ,U are most likely going to win MOST of the time.

However,when there are still several players contending for the pot on 5th, I tend to agree with your play.
The reason is psychological.
U will probably lose a very large % of the times by continuing to tag along with small/medium pair/top kicker. after 5th Str. But if U continue to play,the small % of the time that U do win will show a LONG RUN profit(because of pot size).
Hence,U are reducing your hourly rate as indicated by Ray.
However,losing several short runs in this spot will probably cause your play to deteriorate because U will probably be a little too emotionally upset to continue and U will probably continue to play under your upset state.
However,if U think U can control your emotion sufficiently well to continue to play your "top" game, then the adverse psychological spin off would not exist. So U would then follow Ray and Mike's advice to increase your LONG TERM profit.

Happy pokering,
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SittingBull