Two 2/4 PLO hands: Playing AAxx (poorly?)

[ML4L]

Hey all,

Hand 1: Good 2/4 PLO game on Paradise: loose passive preflop, loose aggressive postflop. The hand history screwed up, so this one is from memory... I'm one of the big stacks at the table with around $900; I have my primary opponent well-covered. I pick up A [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]A [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]J [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]7 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] in MP. One limper to me, and I raise the pot. One coldcaller behind, the BB calls, and the original limper calls. 4 to the flop, which comes:

7 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]6 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]5 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

Checked to me, I bet the pot (around $70), coldcaller folds, BB thinks and then calls (he seems to be borderline loose-aggressive), and then the limper folds. Heads-up to the turn, which comes:

J [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

BB checks, I check behind. River comes:

K [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

BB now goes all-in for $170 into the $210 pot. I think and then call.


Hand 2: Game texture similar to the first hand, but with more preflop action. I have around $320 get A [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]A [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]T [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]3 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] in early-middle position. EP limps, I limp, and then the next player raises the pot. He's been doing most of the preflop raising, and has been doing it with hands that aren't even playable (and then playing aggressively postflop). He also has $1,000 in front of him. Anyway, one player coldcalls, EP calls, and then I reraise to $110. Original raiser calls, coldcaller folds, EP calls. 3 to the flop, which comes:

J [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]9 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]4 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

EP checks, I move all-in.

Comments on both hands are greatly appreciated.

ML4L

[Paul2432]

PLO is not really my game, but I'll take a crack at this.

Hand #1: I am of the general opinion that AAxx is an OK hand if you can get all-in before the flop. Heads-up it is probably worth a bet on the flop. On a four way hand with a coordinated board and no draws to the nuts, I think your best play is check fold on the flop. My guess here is your opponent had the straight (or possibly a set).

Hand #2: I think you have to bet on the flop and hope everyone folds. If someone calls you're probably in trouble.

Paul

[sam h]

Hand #1

There is no way I bet this flop. AA in Omaha is just a tease. On the flop you basically have nothing and the money is deep.

Hand #2

For a lot of players this preflop reraise is basically automatic, but I've stopped doing it personally without position. You've basically announced your hand but only gotten a third of the effective stack in. Since you're going to bet any flop that's not too scary or too good, you're just letting your opponents - whose holdings probably weren't that far behind yours hot and cold preflop - pick and choose their spots.

Some will argue with me here. But I've lost enough money overplaying AA in this game to generally just play it like any other good hand unless I can get at least half the effective stack in before the flop.

[Guy McSucker]

Disclaimer: whenever I play 2-4 PLO I get killed. Anyway...

Hand 1, preflop action is fine of course - just a plain old raise. When the flop comes 567 with three others in the pot, you should be checking and folding. If it gets checked twice you might test the waters with your two pair on the turn or river, but you are basically bluffing.

Hand 2. You limp-reraise to $110, with $210 left to bet. The trouble with this is that whether or not you would do this with other hands, your opponents are now putting you on aces with some certainty. Only a hand that beats you or has a good chance of beating you will give you action now. Especially out of position, you are in terrible shape: if you bet, you'll only be called if losing, and if you check, perhaps the late position player will realise that you know he puts you on aces and bluff at the pot. Ah well, for $210 more I suppose you grit your teeth, put the money in and close your eyes.

Guy.

[crockpot]

hand 1: i check this hand on the flop without a second thought. unimproved aces with deep money in a four-way pot should rarely be bet, and when they are, it should be because the board is very disconnected and thus unlikely to help someone who has called a big raise pre-flop.

hand 2: this isn't the world's greatest pre-flop play, but i think i probably do the same as you, especially if there is a chance the aggressive player behind you will now reraise all-in because he has decided to "go with his hand".

i would prefer a flop like J74 for moving all in, but you have no other choice than moving in here, unless you want to get robbed blind by the other players. if you intend to check and fold to a bet now, you had no business re-raising preflop, as you were just increasing the amount your opponents could steal from you.

as an aside, i do not believe that raising pre-flop with aces in a loose game is correct unless the sidecards are nice (second pair, double suited, two face cards, etc.) even against really loose callers, this hand has severe playing disadvantages after the flop. i will raise with it only if i know that my opponents will loosen up after the flop if i hit a set. (and i know plenty of players who will do this, for whatever reason.)

[ML4L]

Hey all,

First, thanks for the responses so far.

On Hand 1, I don't necessarily agree with check-folding here. That flop is as scary to most opponents as it is to you, so putting in an even money bluff isn't terrible, IMHO. But after I was called, I'm obviously beat. I figured that there were four possible hands that he could have after he called on the flop: a made straight, a big straight draw, a set, or two small pair. When I made my two pair on the turn, I thought a check was clearly correct (I was PRAYING for another jack on the river...). On the river, given the nature of the opponent, I feel that he would have made that river bet holding ANY of those four hands that I listed, given that I showed weakness on the turn. So, even though he is clearly more likely to have a straight or a set, I felt that the way that he played the hand meant that there was a good enough chance that he would show two smaller pair or a busted draw for a call to be correct. As it so happened, he did flop the straight...

On Hand 2, I was trying to see the flop cheaply, given the texture of the game. But, when a player with incredibly low raising standards raised as he did, I had a hard time just calling the raise and trying to play my aces against a field. This way, I figured that, at worst, I was going to go heads-up with a random hand. Yes, I would be out of position, which gives him the option to get out of the hand while I'm committed. But, all the money is going in on the flop anyway, so position isn't as much of a factor. I was amazed that the original limper called too, but oh well. The flop was definitely not a good one; one of those two had to have gotten some piece of it. But, at this point, I didn't think that a check-fold was reasonable. So, in it all went... The original raiser then raised to $600 (ruh-roh), EP folded, and we flipped. He showed 9 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]8 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]7 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]4 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] for a pair and a straight draw and won when a ten came on the turn...

Anyway, comments on my thought process are appreciated.

ML4L

[sam h]

Hand #1

"That flop is as scary to most opponents as it is to you, so putting in an even money bluff isn't terrible, IMHO."

Part of this is an image thing. Do you raise with a large variety of hands, or - like most players - almost always with AAxx, KKxx, or four high cards working together? Because if you don't then your holding shouldn't scare your opponents at all, although they may be afraid of each other.
Against three typical online opponents, this flop bet is a loser in the long run and I don't think its close. If any of them are tricky enough to raise you here with nothing, knowing that you obviously have only an overpair that you'll fold, then the flop bet is even worse.

Hand #2

"Yes, I would be out of position, which gives him the option to get out of the hand while I'm committed. But, all the money is going in on the flop anyway, so position isn't as much of a factor."

I just don't think this is true. Think about it this way: You each ante one unit, with you having the slightly better hand (his holding, which is definitely subpar for this situation still has 42% equity heads up against yours). You've gotten that one unit in with slightly the best of it, so you've gained there. But you've essentially comitted to putting in two more units no matter what flops. And your opponent, who knows half your hand, has the option of deciding whether to save or conserve his two units. You will never get these units in with anything more than slightly the best of it, and you will often be getting them in with 30% equity - as it turned out in this hand - or worse.

I think you should only play AAxx this way if you are somebody who will often play other holdings like 9876 this way as well. The fascination with AA is psychological detritus from Holdem, IMO. It took me a while to get rid of.

[ML4L]

Hey Sam,

Thank you much for your response. As you may have guessed, I'm an experienced hold 'em player, but I've probably played a total of 20 hours of Omaha in my life. So, I am DEFINITELY lacking in the finer points of the game...

ML4L

[tewall]

I think hand 2 is fine for the poster. Given Aces is a likely hand he'll be put on, the fact that people can put him on a hand doesn't hurt him that much as the money is not deep and he's already got his in. I don't believe it's true that he will only be called by hands that have him beat because many hands that are behind him will have the odds to call.

I don't see how he could have played it differently (other than raising instead of limp re-raising -- although in this case I like the limp re-raise better), do you?